Episode 200: Breaking News Story From Israel With Yuval Abraham

Episode 200: Breaking News Story From Israel With Yuval Abraham

[Music] hey welcome to uh live from america podcast um this is hatim along sami norm dorman the one and only owner of the comedy seller in new york city he’s in vacation right now from maine joining us thank you you know what’s funny true story i’m writing an email the other day i swear to god i was like hi this is hatim alongside me no i’m dormant i was like this is just in my head the whole time i just keep seeing it saying it the whole time it’s crazy amy award nominee and uh former writer for saturn life and uh patient zero for covert the brothers to the us tony dao is here welcome tony back we don’t know if that’s a tony that that’s my theory because he was in a cruise in china and then he came back back in february and i think he um he got us a virus and he took his first cruise trip and i wonder what he got us this time and uh join us all the way from israel jerusalem all the way from occupied palestine go ahead yuval abraham uh he is an israeli journalist based in jerusalem writing for 972 magazine and activists for palestinian rights hey iowa how are you i’m good at how are you doing thank you so much for joining us what time is it over there now it’s okay uh no just chilling happy to talk to you uh happy to meet you yeah thank you thank you for being here so uh we we we wanted to cover specific incidents and then later on we’re going to talk also about cuomo because i want to get norm and tony’s uh feedback on that but now we have your well for a little bit so we want to discuss a very specific story so usually we cover this issue a lot in this podcast israel versus palestine palestinians israel will cover from all aspects and we always try to be very fair and uh both norm and i actually this is how we started the show um that’s really that debate that we really uh we always have but we both come from a a good place and we we make it happen he have he have a place in new york city i don’t know if you know about it the comedy style the biggest club in the city and this olive tree and it’s a connection of israeli uh owners and workers of palestinian arab and all that and everything is going in harmony now if you ask me behind his back it’s a different story but [Laughter] so yeah you covered a story so uh back in may a team of local call uh released an investigation piece in collaboration with the intercept um and uh you’re exposing coordinated attack by israeli settlers and soldiers killing palestinians in a single day in may and you are the lead investigator in that now right now we want to cover this specific incident uh so you want to tell us a little bit about it and then we’re going to start to question you and no i’m guerrillating you no go ahead go ahead yeah so so it’s an investigative piece like you said that i was one of the writers of i did it together with a good palestinian friend of mine and another journalist and fortunately he can’t be here with us he’s called basil he’s from the west bank um and what the piece covers uncovers is uh that in may 14th um during while there was a war going on in gaza tension you know in between the river and the sea generally it was a friday in four different villages in the west bank simultaneously at around 2 pm uh veiled masked israeli settlers enter palestinian villages for villages accompanied by a small number of the israeli soldiers uh in each different in each one of the villages they they enter and they attack the village so in one village they you know they throw stones and one on one of the houses in another village they burn a car in another village uh they they enter a school and they break the solar panels of the school and this leads palestinians in these villages go out to protect the the homes of the village and the settlers and the soldiers cooperate in shooting a live ammunition a massive use of light ignition i was in one of the villages i saw on the ground almost i think almost 200 bullets that were left there fired by the by the underground after the incident not during i was on the ground i was on the ground after the incident but we have footage in some of the cases from the actual incidents taking place so there is one picture i don’t know if it’s possible to show it to the viewers or not but there is one very iconic picture from from the village of orif which is which is in the northern west bank near nablus okay and there you can see you see a soldier and a set and a mask settler uh both pointing their uh their weapons uh together uh you see a settler without a shirt that his mask is holding a gun and you can show that you can show the picture if you have the ability to do you’re on your phone now do you want to share your screen and show the picture i don’t i don’t i’m talking on the phone so okay you want him to look it up for you all right let’s go ahead and do it if it’s important it’s like the cover picture of the of the article oh yeah i i do have show what happened okay all right so keep going yeah um yeah you can yeah so that’s what we’re seeing now i mean it’s a video that that uh one of the residents of our reef took while the incident was going place of course they’re using live immunization there is clearly no threat to their lives no no you know no no justification to use such lethal force and and they are i mean in this specific picture it’s important to note they’re in the palestinian village standing next to a school so also it’s not you know sometimes of course there are confrontations that happen in major intersections of the west bank on that day also this happens palestinians go out to protests throwing rocks soldiers come they respond with live fire this is not one of these cases i mean in these four cases that we have documented the attack was initiated by the settlers and and you can see it’s happening inside the palestinian villages and of course in each one of these attacks i mean these attacks ended with a palestinian man being shot to death so we have four victims in four like one in each uh palestinian village and uh yeah how did the israeli government react to that because i kind of looked for anything about this incident uh everywhere i couldn’t find except europeans yeah uh there is i mean there’s i mean the reaction was yeah the settlers were not supposed to to be there uh you know it’s i think you know if there is one like the case is that there is no documented footage there is no video there is just the testimonies that we have from palestinians we got no reaction from the israeli government so you need you need when you’re talking about these kinds of things you need some kind of video to prove so most of these cases just stay in the dark because nobody filmed them when there is footage they only you know they only relate to the very specific things shown in the footage so they said like you know the settler that is shooting their gun in there is two videos of that you see settlers shooting weapons at the palestinians they said the settlers should not be there but we did not get you know their response as to you know why these militias entered in the first place with the palestinian villages uh you know to get a specific response from them in regards to that we we didn’t and yeah and and as far as we know in local call in 972 there are currently no investigations taking place except one of the of the four villages uh in which the police has said that they opened an investigation uh two months after the incident took place um and from what i know as a journalist and the statistics that i have as as regards to you know the way the israeli police deals with israeli settler violence in the west bank there is a very very very low chance i mean almost 98 of the police cases are closed uh for lack of evidence uh whatever like they always find a reason but they close all of the cases so there is like a really big sense of immunity uh or yeah for and it’s part of the system also i think if you think about it i mean you have a system in place in which you know one people the israeli people are controlling a population that does not have a sovereignty they don’t they’re under military law and rule they can’t i mean it’s not a democracy they can’t choose i mean the israeli police is not chosen by the palestinians that it’s that it controls or so you mean that there are police in in palestine because the israeli the police is not chosen anywhere no but you have i mean for example in the the minister of of uh of uh interior affairs that is responsible for the police uh is is chosen in a democracy by the public by the people who vote to elect this minister and the minister responsible for the police is not so in israel that controls palestinians it’s not chosen by the palestinians who are under military military law and now so i’m saying this to explain why like it makes sense in a way that in such a system when israeli settlers do this act and attack a palestinian town they are they’re immune to the law because the palestinians are not part of the law they’re not part of forming the law they’re controlled by the law um yeah so that’s in brief i guess what happened that that day and uh of course there is a lot to say and no i was uh you know um i’m glad you mentioned in the beginning that uh you know it’s not one of the cases that you know palestinians start throwing rock on people because you know i find a lot of times that people that take one side are just focused on all everything good about that side and try to ignore the facts that sometimes you know it start with you know either israeli attacking or palestinian attacking you know like it’s right to find a person who will be like okay uh they both usually he palestinian throw rocks and the military is responding but this is not the case in that specific incident you know um so it’s not just blinded because i know you are a an activist for palestinian rights correct i’m an activist for palestinian rights and i’m also in a way activists for israeli rights like i’m as a person you know i’m an israeli i grew up in in near bercheva in a small town i speak arabic very well i have a lot of israeli friends and palestinian friends and and and and you know i’m i care about the lands that i was born in and i feel connected to it and i think what i’m trying to do as a person i hate violence i hate violent systems there is a lot of violence going on around me i see violence almost every week and i want people to have better lives where i live i mean it’s pretty simple like i want you know the space to be less violent i want people to be able to travel to move to make a living to have money to have dignity and and yeah of course i the way i understand the political situation is that currently there is complete inequality between israelis and palestinians who are living between the river and the sea you know where we are 50 50 50 50 if you look at the entire space it’s 7 million israelis and seven million palestinians but we are not equal and i i believe that this needs to change i believe that we the rights that i have is an israeli the freedom of movements that i have my ability to vote the fact that i have you know you know i i can i all of these rights should be also uh forwarded to palestinians and there should be equality it might it may sound naive after what i’m describing after what happened in may and they were in gaza and the tension and also but this is what i’m trying to do and and with other palestinian partners israeli partners who are part of the left-wing you know i think this is this is what we are trying to do to build the future of of equality you know justice to ends the military occupation uh yeah so this is what motivates me and and yeah yeah no that’s uh that’s i have some questions okay so i just had as a personal questions as a guy who feels forgive me for having some technical problems here as a guy who feels uh as you do about the politics in israeli uh how what do you how do you handle having to mandatory military service did you go to the army or can you be a conscientious objector what what options are there for you because obviously you don’t want to go take up arms yeah so i’ll tell you what i did and then i can say generally so for me personally when i was 18 i was recruited and i left the army in the middle uh out of political reasons um i didn’t back in the time i didn’t do it as you know like from from i didn’t say out front the political reasons i found a way to do it through uh you know saying like i can’t fit in with the system basically the military arm generally what i did is really uncommon it’s considered also in in israeli eyes in mainstream israeli eyes like a very you know betrayal in a way of yeah of a national consensus you know the army is very uh holy for here um yeah and and and it’s not an easy thing to do generally people who decide to do this um for whatever reason you know some people do it also for economic reasons you know they’re from poor families they want to work to help their family and this is also a political thing to do in my mind but generally you can yeah you can say you’re doing it for a political reason and then you sit in jail um or anytime between one month to two years you can’t know when they will release you eventually or you can you know people find ways like they say for medical reasons or they can’t fit into the system um yeah in the end if you are if you are um if you want enough to get out you will be able to to leave in the army but on spurs there’s bone spurs a uh a good reason to get out of the israeli military what’s what’s the word bonus first president trump didn’t serve in the army famously because he had bone spurs like some some thing in his knee knee or something like that so i’m really interested in your in your point of view here so uh uh like like in a figuratively if you had been in the army uh in 1948 when well i don’t want to presume but uh you you you you agree or not that um the army was necessary in 1948 otherwise they would have been slaughtered right i think i think in 1948 this the political situation was different yeah that’s it i i no i didn’t i i agree i just didn’t want to presume that you felt that way so so assuming that you were in the army in 1948 and you have an unlimited lifespan what year would you say you would have to quit the army like when did israel get to the point where you no longer could in good conscience feel that you should defend the state militarily you understand the question right i think i still i still feel i still feel until today that an army you know i don’t think we should erase all armies like i’m not a complete pacifist that believes you know i think that you know as an individual currently in the current system the fact that all israelis are immediately at 18 cents to the army creates a very particular mindset and i think most of what the army does today is withhold a military occupation that should end and i’m not sure i mean to your question like you don’t know to pinpoint a certain date but it’s clear to me that as the israeli society moves and becomes more and more right wing as there is the separation is growing larger as you know the colonization of the west bank is is increasing every day and we can’t see the way out we really need people to be out of the national assistance i see my friends i mean i see how difficult it is you know if after you’re in the army for three or four years as a man and you are you know most of what you do in the west bank uh use your company bulldozers demolishing homes you you make arrests at night as palestinians who throw stones after the israeli army expropriated you know lands that they have uh some people standing checkpoints you know the main things that were going on over 450 years of military occupation after you go through such an experience to be able to to to to to have thoughts that are challenging this system to be able to to make a partnership with palestinians the political partnership is much harder so i think that definitely today in my mind uh it’s it’s it’s something that we need we need more people to be out of the national systems to have you know original thoughts to challenge these ethoses of militarism um so just to be clear you do have you know you want to defend israel you love your country what’s that can you hear me i think the massage the massage had enough of this conversation they’re going to put a stop to it how how many let him answer you what was your answer about defending israel we didn’t hear you so i think i think the questions that you’re asking uh like i’ll say for me i want to defend the people who are living here in this land and we’re living together israelis and palestinians so many times when you say you want to defend israel we are putting out of the equation the fact that 50 of the people who are controlled by israel aren’t israeli citizens but you are assuming a two-state scenario no i i i would let let me you know let me let me presume to answer what i take from your answer you can correct me he wants to he wants to be on the side of of morally correct behavior and he wants to defend all human beings based on uh their rights as human beings that he doesn’t including the jews but not at the expense of innocent arabs correct i believe in partnership between israelis and palestinians and i believe the future i mean hot dimension two-stage solution i believe you know the future is going more into a confederation [Music] but that will lead to equality and justice and i don’t think i can do this partnership as a soldier that is you know with me this article but but the reason i was asking this because a lot of times a lot of activists you know there’s two different one not on israel just anywhere someone that just hate the system hate the country hate the idea and just want to be revolutionized and everything and i personally don’t like these people the other side are the people who like love their country believe in it you know and they want to defend it but they know they’re wrong and they’re strong enough to want it to make it right you know that those kind of activists that i admire you know a lot of people will say uh you know some people that you know hate the us or hate israel or hate their bishop or whatever you know but there’s a difference between hating the country and loving your country but knowing that the political leaders right now are wrong and you want to make a step towards a piece so is that which which one but what what do you mean when you say to love your country what does that mean for you for me yeah or generally when you say to love your country what does it mean because they don’t want to answer in a cliche way you know so what does it mean we love your country to love my country is to appreciate what that what what that you know where we come from and the sacrifice have been made through the years to be where we are and appreciate that and understand it in a real world term and be ready to defend it in many ways not only military but if we go away from like say here in the us if we if we go to become more race or or uh you know um just not divided you want to make sure that the country gets back to where it is you know but i love this country i i know where we’ve been i know where we stand morally i know without it a lot of people would have been dead and slaughtered and all that government of their government you know so that’s to me what loving the country is understand everything that we’ve been through i can’t just wake up one day it’s like oh now everything is wrong i want to fix it but how did we get here what happened if we didn’t do what we do you know will you still be there you know yeah so for me for example i am very big defender of the palestinian case you know but to be able to do that i have to admit the mistakes that hamas does you know and i have to say i don’t agree with them you know i don’t agree with killing innocent people of course it happens to both sides but to me this is love in my country i hundred percent believe in palestine and the right to exist and palestinian people too but to be able to know that i have to be like there’s some people are you know they’re you know they’re not true so this is love in your cup but at the end of the day i 100 support my people so this is what i mean by loving my country so i agree with you in the sense of supporting the people like for me i i i much more when i look at the world i see you know as a jew for example i see the history of the jewish people and i care about you know i i care about the jewish people as an israeli i care about israelis and and someone who lives here i care also about palestinians so for me your internet is really coming off uh or living it’s a mechanism that can change and i do you hear me yeah for a second you got caught off hello yeah keep going yeah i guess it’s the musa can i say a word about the the love of country thing so thank you you all can you hear me all right well i i’m gonna presume that uh he could hear me so yeah yeah yeah i i think that um liberal people with with with some good reasoning are suspicious of patriotism because what are the odds that everybody in every country is patriotic it’s it’s obviously a a emotion which is not very merit-based and and it causes a lot of uh tribalism and war and things like this so so this automatic love of country you know it’s uh if you look at it too closely it it’s a good reason to be skeptical of it but on the other hand if you are a leaving leaving the the particular experience of african-americans aside for this for a second if you’re um the at most americans the story of america is actually a story of a country that saved the lives of their ancestors and pre and presented them with a a life and a realistic aspirations wildly more optimistic and more fair than any place on planet earth and so from a conservative point of view say i get that but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater you know it’s actually there are actually very good reasons to be tremendously loving of america because it’s quite a special history that all us people who fled from countries that we shouldn’t have loved to come to america and israel is partly the same for the jewish people and and in our in our thirst to be fair-minded as jews and to fully uh not shirk our responsibility to look at what we’ve done to the palestinian people and what whatever abuses there are i do find a discomfort was saying but yes but let’s remember what jewish history is and it’s okay to love israel because the the his the future of the jewish people without israel can’t prove it but it’s quite likely to have been horrible and so i i just bring it both sides of it but i i agree with you that this shallow mantra of i love my country is quite often uh not examined and unhelpful so that’s my little spiel on all that so go ahead yeah just just loving loving the country is i think what drives you to one piece because kind of like touchwiz the very beginning is and that’s one what motivate me and should motivate any activists is when you love your people you’re gonna work the hardest to uh to make things good for the world because they live in that world you know uh but if you don’t like you people if you don’t love your country if you don’t love you know that that’s that’s a little different for me but um um but but we’ll see but um let me say this if i were um a palestinian i i would have my ethnic prize palestinian but i would not love my i would encourage them not to love their country as it were because um it’s totally corrupt right i mean everything that yuval is fighting for i i wonder nobody but you’re mixing country and leadership and politics but but i’m not mixing it they’re not easily separated their concepts overlap but um what i’m saying is that everything he’s saying i i wonder well could any of this change so long as the palestinian people mostly all the arabic people live in dictatorships brutal dictatorships all the palestinian people i know you mustafa various other people of course they all we all love each other and we all could probably probably if things didn’t get to if the didn’t hit the fan we could probably all live as brothers as neighbors or in the same country right but um no arab country with a dictator whether it’s a palestinian authority or hamas is ever going to live peacefully with the jews let alone not terrorize their own people right the dictators of the palestinians are the israelis not the palestinians no no that’s not true yeah houseline isn’t a free state ask i mean you read about rita and it was amnesty international’s account of the torture chambers in gaza and the west bank oh i understand that every prison has its hierarchy of of of inmate government but it’s not a free land i mean tony i i get what you’re saying and i can’t prove a negative all i can say is that if there was some example of some some arab country which were different i could say yeah you’re right this one the united arab emirates well i don’t know that’s like a like a rich family that lives like i don’t know i’m talking about there’s exactly no no no i’m yeah and by the way jordan is mostly palestinian right go ahead go ahead yvonne yeah i’ll tell you why i’m taking i’m offended about what you’re saying personally as a jewish person yeah you know half of my family is from arab it’s their arab jew like my grandfather my great-grandfather he was born in yemen yeah and my grandmother she was born in libya they spoke arabic fluently there are a lot of reasons for why i mean i think your description of the dictatorships in the arab world correct in most arab states i mean most we have tunisia most arab states are in a state of dictatorship but i think to assign a cultural reason for this i mean i’m reading between the lines and the subjects that you’re saying you’re saying well the arabs have dictatorships because you know culturally i guess they’re not like us the united states or the europeans for me it’s an offensive thing to hear one because i don’t think it’s true i think there is a historical reason especially the western control over the middle east and other places in the world that created this situation today and truly of offensive because you know i’m half arab as a jew i have my parents they spoke arabic i don’t think there is anything wrong with their culture and i also don’t think that the reason there is a military occupation in the west bank or a siege on gaza is because the palestinian authority is corrupt and it is or because hamas is an extremist militant organization which is i don’t think the casual link you’re making is correct i think it’s easier for israel to claim to to continue this military occupation by using these facts as an excuse but i think the main thing about well there is military occupation now yeah he bled they want one land and the israeli side which is the powerful side is not willing to make a compromise and i’m saying this is an israeli that wants its government to make a compromise we’re not willing to make a compromise because it compromised as a powerful person and compromise you have to pay price you either lose land or you lose sovereignty and we’re not willing to to pay that price no that’s not true so a couple let me answer first of all they offered to pay that price historically and and were rejected or not you know it’s not like they’ve never offered to pay the price with land um uh we we know what happened is never they may not have offered everything you want them to offer but they certainly offered more than many israelis wanted them to offer and of course the land that you’re talking about was taken uh as a result of a war of where they were attacked so you know in terms of historic precedence um most countries that uh that attack are not treated with you know okay you you get to attack and then you get 100 percent of every bit of land that you lost in your attack but believing that aside because we get bogged down i want to respond to the first thing you said and by the way i wish they would give 101 percent back just so you know what my position i wish they would give 101 like you know 98 plus plus 4 percent in land swaps i i want the to try to i don’t like that they give 98 back they should give 101 back just to keep everybody quiet i’m sure they can find one percent um but uh as far as the i don’t like the the tactic i don’t think you meant it which everybody gets called a racist now so i made an observation which is true and even even making it an observation which is true you acknowledge it is true but you don’t like i said it because it implies that i’m racist so i’m going to say that i don’t know what the explanation is uh i didn’t say it was cultural but cultural is certainly one explanation i was just merely stating the fact that every uh arab country is not just a dictatorship but a brutal dictatorship and i and i would say that there is something a little condescending in saying that the reason uh they throw homosexuals off rooftops in some of these countries is because of the west i i just i think at that point you may have just gone too far with your forgiveness of these hapless uh uh uh mindless people who were all the only thing they could they’re just mirror the only thing they can do is reflect what somebody might have done to them a hundred years ago 150 years ago and we can just and that’s it we don’t even need to talk about the torture chambers the slaughter of homosexuals the general mutilation anything that goes on in that part of the world it is all finished because uh you know the world war one or something i don’t know i i think that it’s more complex so that and i i was and i was not trying to be simplistic about it i was only trying to say that there is brutal brutal behavior in that part of the world so can you let me finish all right and that and to think that the one tribe that the arab various arab tribes would leave would live side by side with in peace and harmony is the jews and never and ignore the fact that the sunnis and the shiites kill each other each other the wahhabis the alawites you cannot show me to arabic tribes on planet earth living side by side without eventually breaking into violence forget about what they do to the christians so i just think and i’m not trying to whitewash israeli behavior not at all but let’s just be honest about let’s not be naive about the part of the world that we’re talking about what the track record is of various people’s ability to live in liberal situations liberal i define as being able to live peacefully with people not like yourself and treat them as equal i don’t see that anywhere in the arab world go ahead i’m going to let you answer but i want to i have to step up a minute and just say something and then i’ll let you uh answer first of all the homosexual thing you’re talking about like it only happens in the middle east it happens right here in the united states no it doesn’t mean i said yes it does yes no it doesn’t yes it does the government the government throws uh uh it’s not the government a killing of homosexual attack almost we’re in new york are you literally going to compare the united states of america’s attitude about homosexuality no i’m not comparing that i’m comparing parts of the united states what’s your point my point is like what is your is your point that my point about the brutality towards homosexuality i’ll let you finish so let me finish what is your point that my point about the brutality towards homosexuality in the middle east is invalid yeah i’m making so yes it’s invalid because because it you you specific one location while it happens all over the world you want to mix it with this so so if you were gay you would be indifferent to living in america if you were gay you’d be indifferent to living it hold on if you were gay being different to living just one second you’ve been talking for a while one question if you i could say one sec if you you would be indifferent to living in new york tel aviv or tehran come on go ahead right now you are using homosexual you’re using this as a tool right now is it false i don’t think you care i don’t think let me let me finish i don’t think you truly honestly care about palestinian homosexuals i don’t think you actually care about it because i know as a right-wing tool the way that this is used this is used to yeah to whitewash i mean you were using it to whitewash the israeli policies and i think if you cared about there are palestinians living where i live that are fighting for homosexual rights and one of the things that they suffer from is the fact that the israeli army uses homosexuality as a tool to pressure people to cooperate with the shabbat and the israeli army so i think you know did i say something that was false using reasoning let’s say what you’re saying wrong you’re saying because these horrible phenomenons happen in the middle east yeah and because of the patriarchal nature of middle eastern societies you know there can’t be peace between they won’t agree to jews living with them in their land basically you’re blaming your subtext is i’m blaming the palestinian side for what is going on and i think this is dangerous for israelis and for palestinians because the reason why there is not stability and peace right now between the river and the sea and israel palestine is not because of the palestinians approach to homosexuals and because of palestinian brutality but because of israeli brutality israel is the one that controls the land israel is the one that is upholding a brutal military occupation in the west bank a siege on gaza millions of people are locked up in gaza so i think you know to say they’re throwing homosexuals off roof and all of these all of these big things is ignoring the general much more complicated picture and i think if you truly care about the rights of you know palestinian women or homosexuals the first thing that needs to happen is to end the military regime and occupation that is of course by itself a very patriarchal thing um okay so let me ask you this is my view yeah that’s fine so two things first of all i i brought it up only as a response to i i was just talking about the general brutality now you can google i invite people to google like the most uh the most people dying in violence in the world and i think eight of the nine or nine of the top ten are muslim countries right now this is a tragedy where is the most terrorist is going to happen in the us hold on this is false hold on no it’s not false at all you’re talking about millions of people dying um literally i i think hold on i i i believe it’s more than hundreds of thousands i believe it’s a million so i was talking about the i was observing and i can’t believe that that’s such an observation is actually off limits considering we make observations about certain states in america where black people are are treated this way or that i mean it’s it’s it’s perfectly valid to make the observation especially when the numbers are catastrophic and you said hold on hold on hold on let me get my point out let me get my point out and let me get my points out because let me just get my point out why so i and you said well this is because of the west and i was trying to make the point well my mind went to well like some of this violence in no way can be attributed to the west or maybe and some of it does seem quite cultural like attitudes uh about violence was homosexual but the thing that upsets me and then at the last thing i say because you’ve done it twice already and i don’t think i don’t if you’re mean to do it but i think it’s not fair and it’s not right and it’s not intellectual really is it every time i say something you would you answer me with a mind reading of my character the first time it’s because i have a cultural racism the second time it’s because i don’t really care about homicide you know dude you don’t know me either my fa either my facts and my logic are correct and or and i’m al always willing to listen to mistakes and facts and logic or they’re not you don’t need to read my mind and it’s not helpful and you’re probably unbelievably wrong when you do read people’s minds and this seems to be the classic thing from a left-wing person towards a right-wing person is that i’m not going to deal with what you said i know what you really meant and i’m just going to answer what i know you really meant i don’t even need to deal with what you said what happened he was offended by what you said he’s offended because he thinks i don’t really believe it what i’m really saying is something i didn’t say that’s why and i think the guys ask him that’s exactly what he said okay but the major thing was stir from the conversation we’re talking about the israeli ask him if i’m being fair to what he’s saying all right i’m gonna let him and also your well i know you gave us 45 minutes i mean as far as as far as the incident that brought him here i’m proud of him as a jew actually i meant to say this before i couldn’t get in i’m proud of him and israel for the freedom and his morality that leads him to expose but what by all of freedom you’re talking about because we can only get it in one newspaper that’ll that allows him to expose what are you talking about he’s not he’s not censored in israel allows him to expose an injustice occurring in israel as occurs in every country and um if what he’s saying all turns out to be true these people should be rounded up and put in jail and they probably won’t be and he’s fighting for the fact that they should be i can’t take issue with any of that i don’t need to sign on the dotted line that nothing ever outrageous or immoral or brutal happens in israel for me to think a certain way about the palestinian-israeli conflict good for good for you val to exposing these these these uh i don’t want to call them nazis but that’s what i feel like i want to say you know these brutal people in positions of power uh committing atrocities good i’m glad he does i don’t i don’t have bull to say to defend these people your value there you’re kind of frozen yeah yeah he’s stunned oh here we go can you hear us yeah yeah i didn’t hear the mainstream was bad so i didn’t hear that did you ask me something no i was saying a lot of credit i was giving you a lot of credit he was saying good for you that you doing what you are doing you’re doing god’s work if you’re from what i heard no i think i you said but let me speak i’m your guest it’s really hard to speak you’re doing all these monologues and the internet is bad so it’s difficult for me listen you said a lot of things you know for me to also english is not my first language so i’m not as rhetorically fluent as you i think in for your last point i mean you said that i i care about this particular incidents and what i’m trying to do is to get people to notice the system these particular incidents are always going to continue happening as long as there is a military occupation as long as there are millions of palestinians that don’t have political rights and i think for you to bring up the patriarchal nature of palestinian society in this case is a propagandic tool to individuals to put this in the context of the military occupation do you hear me i don’t know if you’re hearing me or not but for example i’ll give you an example in the past three months okay israeli settlers have established 40 farms okay over tens of thousands of dollars of palestinian land expropriating this land from the palestinians some of it was extrapolated in the 80s some of it was taken over by force now by israeli settlers what does this action of taking over land of occupying orlando have to do with what promised thing i think to take to bring you know these uh cliches about people throwing homosexuals off of roofs without you know going to the particular even the particular examples and connecting it to these policies is a propagandic tool because the two things are not directly related to to one another i don’t know if you’re even hearing me because everything is frozen yeah yeah we can hear you well um all right last question about uh can i respond to it can i respond to him because uh i i’m not connecting them and you’re right you’re right they’re not connected but i i was uh responding to the notion of what i think is a unrealistic optimism if you recall what i said was that i thought the key to this in the future was that the palestinian leadership had to be democratic i said that i know palestinian people who could live side by side with me as brothers but so long as their leaders and they were brutal dictators that there would be no good outcome in that part of the world that’s all i said and the israeli leaders also are just as bad no they’re not just as bad very good politicians well you would have to give uh evidence of that then well there are so many i can give you names of people that died over and over for no reason but anyway you’ve i know you you have a limited time so last question first of all thank you so much for being here i know it’s hard the with the connection and the timing and all that uh and really we all know i’m saying and i agree with them it’s like your work is great uh you know because you’re exposing uh something people need to know about it so thank you for that as well the last question what do you think the solution is in your opinion in my opinion i think today the two-state solution has lost a lot of its relevance because mainly because of the extreme amount of settlements uh built in the west bank and in jerusalem i think the idea of separation more and more is becoming irrelevant and personally i i believe we the solution has to take into consideration the fact that the space is shared between israelis and palestinians but there are two different national identities so solution like a confederation there is a very interesting initiative it’s called uh really encompasses uh touches on the core issues in in in a way and this solution is a confederative solution so there are two states that gives you what i’m sorry you’re breaking up the example different national identities but the space is one space and of course the colonial policies of israel there is equality freedom of movement from everybody let’s talk there is for everybody um an equal access to resources and two national states okay so i’m [Music] i believe in this considerative model on my day-to-day practices i’m not now i think solution is far away i think most urgently we need to pressure the israeli government to stop the military victory and occupations how can you blame palestinians yeah you uh you’re breaking up so you’ll find one step okay the mossad decided to cut oh he’s back so until he connects um i think he’s saying uh he’s goes for one state the two-state solution if you if you get them back ask them does that mean like everybody votes in the election or 14 million people and so does that mean yeah everybody votes and uh the who who gets the army and the police the conservative solution means that there is an israeli state in a palestinian state based on the 67 borders and citizens vote for their state but there is a also a confederative model so you can be you can be a resident of the other state and you can move freely so you vote you vote for your state but the space is common and i think it’s a really good way to look at the situation because if you can vote army would it have missiles both have army and police and statual entities but also there are mutual you know there corporations there exists a very high level of operation between them it’s basically taking what is going on today and making it equal making the palestinians equal to the israelis if you were ever here in this land you see how israelis and palestinians are are sharing the space everywhere in the negev it doesn’t matter where in jerusalem in the north they’re living together but under a jewish state that gives power and rights and privilege to the jewish people and holds 5 million palestinians under a dictatorship of course this can’t work it’s not sustainable it’s violent it creates brutality so this needs to stop like there is israeli and jewish sovereignty in the land we need palestinian sovereignty in the land i think a confederation is the best way to to achieve that all right yeah well thank you so much uh for being here for your time uh we really appreciate it if you wanna share your information if people wanna follow you on twitter or your work thank you adam you can on facebook i’m mainly yuval abraham if you want uh to follow me write yuval abraham uh on facebook this is where mainly i write and but yvonne thank you very much i i’d love to meet you in person if you ever come to new york me too no me too i’d love to meet you all um uh hot tub can we stay on for a few minutes after he goes yeah yeah yeah we’re gonna talk about cuomo uh all right yuval thank you so much i’m gonna show you all right thank you thank you very much shalom uh by the way what is with you what is with me are you really there’s something he does attack me are you really are you really going to imply that he’s censored because he’s only published in in two 972 and the intercept you think that israel doesn’t have a free press that the government can have any say never mind that every israeli can can type in his thing never mind that 972 his website is also in hebrew as far as i understand are you really are you really going to parrot these notions of israel being equivalent in terms of rights and and democracy and brutality as can i answer it’s very upsetting can i answer yeah right before this show you know what i’m funny well by the way you know what’s funny shaunie right before the show noam and i said we cannot find this article anywhere he said that and i said that you know we look for it everywhere could it be found except for the link that i said and then you talking about i’m not saying they sent the government censor i’m saying it’s not covered by the media there’s a difference the reason they even reach out to me was it because there’s another it wasn’t covered anywhere so right maybe maybe it’s not covered because other people investigated it maybe this is astounding to me what you’re saying and it’s such a false no you put the words on my mouth i didn’t say they be in that israel censor i said media doesn’t cover it just like here media doesn’t cover stuff that’s unless it’s a muslim it’s not going to get the first news first of all the intercept in 972 are widely read especially the intercept second of all haaretz which is one of the major papers in israel covers stuff like this all the time i agree but your implication no you’re putting words in my mouth again you know no i’m not i’m talking about this specific story yeah your implication what i said dude i’m getting upset i was talking about israel being a free country and you’re like yeah so free that how come this country when you say that the reason a story is not being covered is because it’s not free you’re implying that that lack of freedom is the reason behind the story not being covered and that’s just all right i said that the media didn’t cover it first of all the intercept picked it up three months after it happened this happened in may the intercept picked up three months ago and then they contacted me and got it so let me tell you something in any arab country java would be in jail now all right let’s be honest okay come on now i didn’t say no i didn’t disagree but you again with the help of israeli technology but the thing is like in chinese you you were you were like saying like oh don’t talk about my characters and you’re talking about mine you know me better than anybody so i i talk about yours or mine if it’s it but it’s got to be factual if you’re if you’re really going to conflate and you know it was very insidious what he did because i wasn’t trying to bring up homosexuals i was bringing up the fact that you know if you’re going to uh if you if you’re gonna put everything on the israelis yeah but in the end you have to also be let’s all admit that even within the palestinian community it is a brutal suppression torturing or whatever it is he says that and he said and he said his answer was that’s you’re saying it’s cultural i’m not saying what it is that’s he says it’s because it’s what the west did to them so the natural thing in my mind is like all right really it’s because the west the west did to them did the west make them hate homosexuals so much that it’s considered acceptable to execute them and from that he says oh that’s just a tactic like really you know every rather than answer anything i was like you know a needs to be least to see what he could have said was you know what know him you’re right the fact that the the there’s no picnic on the other side either and i am quite concerned that if um if if i could get my way in israel that everything would fall apart because look what happened in lebanon look what’s happening in syria look what’s happening i think that is that is what a good faith person looking at this but here’s the thing a good faith person would say in my opinion israel is responsible for abc but of course there is no track record he’s in that part of the world hamas is not a he said hamas he did what he was trying to focus on two things what he was trying to focus on was the israeli part right now we covered the palestinian part so many times and i personally said the second thing when he said the western are responsible he didn’t mean what he meant and we said that before is the middle east was occupied for years and years that affected the education the culture a lot of things so that’s why they’re brutal by the west and that’s why they’re brutal can i get can i give you an example for a second not about it we destroyed japan we destroyed germany we destroyed korea we had a military occupation in japan a military accurate patient of all these countries but how long many years no we’re still no we rebuilt it and then we rebuilt them hold on we’re still no we didn’t we didn’t rebuild them no we did not no you didn’t like how long you occupied japan for with japan i i don’t know how many years for japan still is not allowed to have an army we’re talking about occupation let’s be specific is it occupied the melbourne the villages are occupied for 150 years my point what i’m getting to is this if japan was uh not so successful if korea was not so successful if germany was not so successful everybody would say without without really many people requiring them to show their work would say well of course of course japan is like that we destroyed them and we occupied them of course germany is like and korea is the old like a what do you know but there’s a there’s a bottom line which is that um we’ve been out we’re not occupying syria we’re not occupying lebanon we’re not occupying uh many many countries and and and we are not responsible for what’s going on there no not now let me let me answer because now my blood is boiling literally because you you were going around the facts and it’s not correct first of all what’s that correct what’s that one fact is that correct okay let me say how many times there was a war in japan once it was destroyed once rebuilt since then how many let’s say iraq every other month every other year there’s a war and first of all there’s a work constantly you can’t even rebuild anything not in lebanon not in iraq not anywhere so you compared germany who have the last war was in 1945 nothing happened since then same thing with japan that’s one two i’m talking about occupation culture when you have another culture living in your land for a hundred years and telling you what to do and there’s no education there’s no there’s no yes that will affect you for a generation to come that’s what i’m saying what was it what was that with iran when they were under a dictatorship what were they tell me about what what iran happened before the revolution how was iran uh what what’s your dictatorship iran was was western very western until the islamic revolution you know egypt before and right well so let’s look at that so who’s i’m not gonna defend the shah i don’t know enough about that part i’m sure they had they had every reason to want to get rid of him but is the islamic resolute revolution and the the oppression that it represents the west’s fault no but i’m saying the culture i’m not i’m i’m talking about uh iraq uh yes yes because we’ve been at war with iran ever since they’ve opposed the shot iran without our help and blessing i i use are you saying gnome that if if a country was occupied not bombed but occupied for hundreds of years there will be no effect in their culture and behavior in education that’s one and two if if if it’s constantly bombed like afghanistan or like iraq or constantly in war like lebanon and syria or jordan this would have no effect of course it does i don’t know i don’t why i don’t say no i don’t think of course it does really well i mean i could look at the jewish people who have been murdered and slaughtered and and uh second-class citizens and oppressed in the soviet union whenever you talk about something like something else i’m asking you right now about the arabic world i’m just giving you an exam i i’m not giving you something i’m using a very original theory called analogies all right okay i’m making an analogy i’m saying that if what you’re saying is true then we would be able to prove it in other situations i’m saying that the jewish people who were uh treated horribly in russia horribly in eastern europe slaughtered in in germany six million of them in a short time um that’s not the same thing recovered right that’s not analogy give me one place give me a place like the middle east where there was constantly everywhere that ever happened for humankind happened there you know well of course but you’re making my point i’m saying what happened in lebanon for instance where the muslims slaughtered the christians and now and it continues to be there’s just a headline about lebanon this week what basket case it is i i mean what’s going on there you want to continue to blame something 100 years ago you can but other countries have recovered from the once the west has left other countries other countries have recovered from adam bombs so let me ask you this when was that when was um women weren’t able to vote here in the united states in the 20s in the 20s so how many years that ago 100 years ago 100 years ago so let’s wait when was the last war in the middle east oh it’s still gone but let’s say when was the last so let’s say 2 000. you know so why not you don’t want to give i’m sure in the time they will recover you know there’s everything that happened in the middle east happened here before it happened in europe before you know there was a a a call an act called the women financial act in england where it says that women now can actually go to banks can drive can do all that everything that happens in the middle east happens in europe happened in america before it just give it time so it’s the same thing just give it time stop vomiting oh i’ll give it time but in the meantime the jewish people can’t risk moving backwards i’m not talking about the jewish people right now yeah well that was arab israeli conflicts but started this yeah but right now i’m talking about culture why they are what they are you know i i don’t know why they are what they are but you can’t say as people first of all you know more than anybody how many people and you met them and you work with them and you hang out i i told you i told you what it is they have dictatorships it needs it needs to stop yeah and you cannot and you cannot blame israel for the dictatorships israel is not in every sentence and jews are not ever saying and until until they stop having dictatorships even if israel disappears from the map it is not going to help the palestinian people no hold on this is the key point it’s not going to help the palestinian people live one slight ounce better because abbas abbas is on the 13th year of his fourth of his four-year term and people like you’ve gone through the same thing and people like juval say nothing about that because they were focusing in one side you want them to focus in in everything that’s wrong with palestinians he can focus on one side but he has to acknowledge yeah and i’m not sure he does but i never did how did dictatorship start i’ll tell you how it starts occupation and before they leave they put somebody who’s loyal to them with a strong military this is what happened in every country in the middle east even they divide there was no country called kuwait and they made kuwait i’m from kuwait i was born in kuwait there was no koi they made kuwait because they want to split the oil put somebody give them some armies like hey you’re going to be the boss and we’re going to back you up this is how dictators happen all over the middle east they’re like you you are contradicting things other things you’ve said to me you you were not for the the the the democratic uprising in egypt right you were happy that the the that the army took over again 100 because what happened when when that when they had the election and the and the reason you’re worried about the the actual democratic representation in egypt is because the culture of that is of that islamic people is something you want to protect against basically everything that i’m saying no you’ve agreed with me when it comes to egypt no it’s you see you’re not seeing what i’m saying you know in israel it’s a different situation i didn’t know egypt is different i’m sorry no i tell you why let me explain it because you know not only in egypt the whole middle east if there is election the most people that have underground roots in the election and in the political game are islamic background because they have funding from a lot of people they know how to win an election so if there is an election in any middle eastern country right now they’re gonna win it happens in lebanon happens in egypt happen in tunisia a year later they up everything and we have to do it were they not ready we ready when we establish leaders we establish democratic system and this is all they’re going to come i’m not worried about it because i see it you know you sound like me now you sound like everything i just was saying but and and but but the thing is that the democratic will of these people that you’re describing you’re scared of that no i’m not scared of the will at all then why would you want the army to take over from the democratic process in egypt i didn’t want it to take it all from the democratic i wanted to take it over from the islamic um but the islamic people win the elections they won the election yeah i know now what’s wrong with the islamic no they were not when we call it islamic it’s not really it’s like when we call taliban and a muslim or or organization it’s not you know they use the name obviously um you know but but the problem with them is they are you know you can’t win an election if you have it’s all about funding if you’re going to pay people to vote i got to go i didn’t realize what time it was my friends are here i just say i just say a cuomo uh he’s gonna is he’s gotta go but i think he made it yeah give it get give a guy tony and then know him quickly your feedback in co and coma and if he should leave i don’t live on the i don’t live in new york so it doesn’t really i don’t even follow that story i don’t even care about it should he quit everybody seems to think so gnome what do you think do i think he should quit yeah uh i mean from his point of view or point of view the state of the people of new york what do you mean by that he should quit no from as as a governor and he is attac you know accused something he was he wasn’t convicted i don’t know what this thing is about you know it wasn’t like yeah i mean if he if he’s innocent he shouldn’t quit he should he should demand the impeachment trial and he should cross-examine the witnesses if he’s guilty then he has two options he can try to tough it out and never admit it you know like it’s like real politic or he can disgrace him and his family name and resign you know it’s he’s in a bind as as a citizen do i think that we’re gonna have a better governor than cuomo who replaces him no as a business owner i i think cuomo is probably slightly more uh realistic about what business owners need to succeed then whoever’s going to replace him so i’m torn you know but what he did is disgusting but he did it to be clear what he did is you know it’s horrible well i don’t like the fact that they’re talking about changing the name of the mario karma bridge because of whatever he did that that that that’s the dumbest thing i ever heard they should have never named it the mario cuomo brits happens he was an awesome name and mario mario bridge he’s the iconic governor of new york state makes perfect and what else is he up just by coincidence tony he uh was italian wasn’t he yeah it’s nice to see italian americans you know clouded every now and then you know he was a crappy especially since this country was named after an italian american was named after an italian actually yeah yeah because it wasn’t american yet that’s right but what about his speech why did he say i did not have sexual relationship with these women i mean this he seems to work right i don’t know it’s uh i think he i think you know from the outside i think he’s done no who’s your friend i i’m not allowed to say his name he doesn’t want to be associated with uh oh i was gonna ask him what do you think about cuomo can he say without saying his name what do you think about cuomo think he’s awesome he thinks he’s i think he’s one of the worst governors in the country should he resign did he resign because of the um uh the nursing homes nursing homes absolutely and i think i think all of the other charges are peripheral even even for the democratic party i think they’re they’re raising these charges because they don’t want to address the the crisis on on covet i think that was so badly handled nobody wants that on their hands absolutely but that was and that was andrew giuliani everyone the sexual charges are are substantial and more significant than i think anybody’s realized would actually like putting his hands on their girls blouses and it is you know this is this is serious stuff yeah this is serious well i mean like morally i think he should step down anyway but uh you know um because obviously he’s guilty of something you know um even if it’s not criminal in charge but yeah i just want to see the trial you know everything to me is entertainment first and um i would i would just love to see trying the television stuff yeah the trial the cross-examination represented by anthony weiner that would be uh oh that would be awesome for trial should be represented by anthony weiner [Laughter] you know he can always tell if the person is guilty or not by who the who would they hire as a lawyer yeah all right all right are we are we finished because i um i have lobsters to eat and uh you’re talking about shellfish that’s yeah but apparently uh it’s halal apparently you can eat lobster i would time when i went out to dinner and he told me that arabs can eat shellfish i just assumed they were they copied us on everything but i guess they were asked but um as so as the jews and palestinians are suffering norm is gonna have lobster enjoy it [Laughter] lobster by the beach yes all right all right yes live america you should you should get you vow to come to new york i mean like make sure make sure we get to meet him when he’s in new york yeah i will i will is it possible to argue anymore without being you know have your character assassinate like it’s ridiculous it’s not gonna happen yeah okay you don’t care about homosexuals okay bye bye you
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Episode 200: Breaking News Story From Israel With Yuval Abraham

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