NEWSNIGHT | ODM Leader is fronting a ‘Made in Kenya’ economic model

[vc_row][vc_column][vc_video link="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqaCl7CQ3Sg"][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row][vc_column][vc_column_text][/vc_column_text][/vc_column][/vc_row][vc_row][vc_column][vc_column_text]but the question of getting money to the counties is the actual issue how different is the next five years under an odm government for example going to be if what we've seen so far the challenges of counties being cash starved you know starving the counties is not a constitutional matter it's not a policy matter it's an administrative issue and that is a failure of a government of the day in my in my view it is very simple the evolution is something that is in at the heart of odm political agenda oda manifesto but i want to come out clearly here uh vega transforming rural economy is not just simply equate it cannot simply be equated to devolution devolution is one of the means of actualizing uh the transformation of rural economy it's not the only means if you look at what railroading has felt out it is a raft of proposals okay we are talking about trans infrastructural development in the rural areas we are talking about food production in rural areas we are talking about efficient civil service we are talking about how then do we look at the tax regime to make investment in rural areas more attractive and this involves a lot of things so the evolution yes but devolution is just one of the major means of actualizing the transformation of rural economy thanks john buddy i'll give you a chance to talk a bit more later let me bring in kimani shrimp i think we've got the the mic working bottom up model i hope so now that we have to test it live please proceed i was thinking i first appreciate that indeed the conversation has changed and i'm glad that we are here today having this discussion now about the economy we are now now discussing about the constitution and constitutional changes we are not talking about power and how people will get power we are talking about people-centric issues and is about the economy and i think from the opinion polls that you have seen by tifa today you've seen economic issues at the forefront of the concerns being raised by canyons today and indeed it's an arena i want to invite all our colleagues to have a meaningful discussion on as to what we need to do in this economy the only qualification i would beg of them is to put aside the insults we are talking about a bottom-up economic model let them own up to their trickle-down economic model and articulate how that trickle-down economic model is going to change kenya's lives in the next five to ten years that it has not done in the last 60 years remember this country next year but one will be 60 years after independence and you probably need a historical perspective as to how we got to the trickle down economics and to the bottom up fast fast trickle down okay i'm hoping you quickly get to the answer is trickle down that has gotten us to where we are if you look at the issues that are being raised by kenyans in that opinion what i'm telling you top among them is unemployment and a high cost of living and that is as a consequence of the trickle-down economic model that we have pursued since independence and that is what we are saying that now we need to change that to an economic model that empowers people at the bottom of the pyramid and why i say this debate is interesting and i was just telling you when welfare i find it interesting that in kenya we are talking about bottom-up economic economic model joe biden in the u.s talking about the same thing bottom up middle out but the his colleagues in the u.s are not insulting it our colleagues on the other side here in kenya are insulting and insulting and before we get to the insults please give us the definition i want us to start there bottom bottom bottom up economics right here is very simple yes it is not about the the economics of entitlement and the economic of power by a few it be it economic power by a few at the top it's about empowering people at the bottom of the pyramid when you empower people at the bottom of the pyramid the taxes that my colleague john budd is talking about there how do you increase the number of people that are paying taxes you do that by ensuring that you bring more people in the tax bracket by empowering them economically and that is all that the bottom up economics about is about empowering people at the bottom of the pyramid to make them not dependent on others because the trickle-down economics assumes that you will put money at the top of the pyramid to a few at the top of the pyramid and then benefits will trickle down to the people at the middle of the pyramid and at the bottom of the pyramid and what uh history has taught us is that the trickle down actually works it never gets to the people at the bottom of the pyramid and a lot of people and that is what is happening in kenya today a lot of our people millions of them are dependent on a very few uh percentage of kenyans that are paying taxes today that is why you will see yourself and kwame here and others who are privileged to be in formal employment paying a lot of taxes very high taxes because the people at the bottom of the pyramid are dependent on you but when you empower people at the bottom of the pyramid they stop being dependent all new on the field that i'm earning and they also have a means of production and the means of earning and they become tax payers that way you grow the economy and i'll come to you to explain how exactly you plan to empower them but come i think you can come in now you've been patiently waiting it's the season of economic promises they are flying in left right and center kwame what should kenyans consider as politicians come knocking at their doors with these promises of how they'll transform the economy it almost miraculously okay how do you fact check your local politician when they come with a promise okay i think first uh i hope we do not trivialize like we did with the important discussions such as bbi um the last elections we trivialize uh proposals by any one or the other side through you know some of the caricatures that we've done i think you can caricature an idea to the point where it becomes useless to debate it now if bottom up economics okay first let me say bottom-up economics or top-down do not appear in textbooks they are actually political interpretations of how one administration or another would choose to prioritize economic development or to improve people's welfare so i'll start by saying you assess them regardless of the slogans you can call it bottom up you can call it whatever i mean whatever people want to do but regardless of it i think that as a citizen we think that anybody who tells us that look we are going to expand your economic freedoms to participate in the economy to earn an income and to keep most of your money is actually somebody who's widening the opportunity for everybody to participate um so if there's something from body and tumor to answer for and the neurons coming with this it is that whether you choose bottom up or whether you choose at uh you know facilitating uh counties you're going to reverse some of the things that you just did three weeks ago through the budget so for instance let's start with the fact that i never knew it but i looked at it again and i confirmed to you that the highest paying sectors in kenya uh are actually manufacturing using local products to actually manufacture and get people to earn an income so it's both employment and also creating a demand for domestic goods but also an opportunity to export so these gentlemen are proved through the finance bill taxes into the inputs that paint making companies which are the major exporters most of kenya's paint companies actually export into east africa even into the south sudan and some of it are surprised even to somalia i think you raise their inputs you raise excise taxes on their inputs on paint in such a way or i mean in the product in such a way that some of them and i spoke to someone who runs a small note today but a while back somebody runs a small paint company and he said last year many of them because they're anticipating a recovery did not send workers home because the demand is growing you raise their input cost through the finance bill in a way that makes it difficult for them one to support people who who are the retailers in kenya and abroad i mean and abroad but more importantly makes their production costs even higher so whether you call it bottom-up or whether you call it facilitating counties you guys are going to very quickly if you really intend to expand opportunity for kenyans to reverse some of the stuff that you've done secondly i also agree that there's an opportunity to participate so we should not civilize or caricature uh the proposal that uh beyond telling kenyans consider every whatever i think we need to listen to it yes but the lens i wish to look at it is this the same two gentlemen on your coalitions approve the finance bill which says small and micro enterprises were very concerned and manufacturing firms everybody is very concerned about this minimum meaning minimum tax tax threshold however parliament in its wisdom saw it as necessary to say that fine everybody else will pay it but you will not pay it if your total investment in the last five years is equivalent to 10 billion which takes out 95 percent of all of all consumers so while you say who agrees with you when you say bottom up and you say that you're trying to facilitate people who should invest in counties to prevent i don't know why you want to prevent people from coming to nairobis that's where the jobs are both of you are saying things that contradict expanding freedoms for people to participate in the kenyan economy and that's the question i want to ask you without we should not have the economic problems and the burdens that we've seen which you mentioned quite are so serious that we should not trivialize it with alcohol because we dislike alcohol we want people to hate it or trivialize it by by making reference to human anatomy please let's not go there i think that would be cheapening a discussion that is very you've raised very important issues don't buddy i don't know if you caught much of that i hope you did direct question post to both you and kimani shungwa that while you talk about 2022 and beyond and grand promises some of the bills that you are lying to pass through the national assembly are hurting kenyans as we speak they can't wait for 2022 john buddy what's your response to those concerns raised by kwame we know thank you first of all let me just put it that if kwame really wanted us to discuss the finance bill that we passed which is now the finance act 2021 then i think we would make that uh topic of discussion for another day so that we discuss the merits and the merits of all the provisions in that act there could have been certain things that were not right in the law but there are also a lot that we did in fact which is helpful to the common monarchy i thought today we were discussing the economic models that have been put forward by various political leaders more particularly railroading and the deputy president no john buddy you're right that's what i call i want to go back i want to go back okay you're right that's what i called you for back to the discussion that we had for one minute surely you can respond to what kwame had to ask don't you see that that hurts kenyans today as they wait for your economic promise for the future but i've just mentioned that uh there are a lot of things that we did that are so helpful to the common managing that finance act and that's why i wanted us to avoid the discussion around the finance act because today you've just seen a celebration in tanga of the very ordinary people those who are suffering the artists who also got a lot of reprieve as a result of the action taken by members of parliament but i wanted us to spend our time more to discuss what is this that is called bottom up by the deputy president and what is this that we are referring to as a transformation of the rural economy and that is what i wanted to concentrate on because otherwise if i started talking about the finance act the merits and the merits of the various amendments that were made then you take another whole day on the same you've made your point if you yeah i want you just to be very clear that what ryla is talking about is that there is a potential to grow this country and that potential lies in the rural community because that is where we have the biggest population of our country and that is where we have a lot of potential in terms of resources in terms of productivity and for us to move this economy forward we need to now target on that sleeping giant that is the rural economy and how do you have then help the rural economy to grow and that is what i expected to hear uh from uh how this a bottom up is going to put money in the hands of the soul that the people he's referring to as the the down jordan people our understanding of the whole model that we are proposing to kenyans and this is something that rhino believes in because it is one thing to say and it is another to demonstrate that you believe in what you say raela odinga believes that the rule on communication needs infrastructure in terms of road network that would help them take their produce to the market and efficiently and faster he believes that the rural area needs healthcare water provision energy provision and all that would be required under the creation of light industries in the rural areas to promote and encourage people to produce and sell their produce there is a lot of disorganization when it comes to marketing of the produce in the rural areas so this needs to be made more efficient and this railroading has demonstrated remember when he became the minister for energy that is when he came with rural electrification program the rare that now we see across the country no people are not attributing that to him yet he's the one who came up with that fantastic idea which has helped to transform rural areas what he's saying i'm going to push it forward further when he was the minister for rhodes in the narc government that is when he came up with various road agencies and gave them the support that was required and you remember when he started the infrastructural development okay the planning and the science of our various roads across the country sometimes he was even branded as one who was anti-investment but he knew very well that this country needs road network he wants to transform that to the rural economy so that those centers like rudy can come rhodic can come up very fast okay john buddy uh improve the economy okay okay and that can go to chuka and i'll ask you to post there because i know you have a lot and i'll give you a chance to carry on kimani you come on and please respond to what aquaman had to say if you're in the indeed i wanted to start with what kwame is asking and uh something that john buddy is running away from and the only reason john buddy is running away from it is because his chair odm the chair the finance committee that midwife the finance bill 2021 is none other than gladyswanger if you go to the records of parliament you will see that i indeed opposed the question of minimum tax last year in last year's finance bill it is unanswered in parliament i have posed a question of minimum tax because i knew and i said it in parliament that it doesn't occur well with the majority of suffering kenyans and indeed that's about the time i was also in the budget committee and i spoke in parliament if you remember when they tabled the the estimates last year and i said i shall no longer be an apologist for a regime that is not in tandem and is not in touch with with the people so you are an apologist initially for a regime that was not in tandem well well before before i was not i was not an apologist for them but i stood for what i believed then they were doing was that was good for the country but when they started doing things that were not in that tandem or in touch with what the people wanted i said it in parliament on the floor parliament i'm not just saying it here because we are accused by many times of saying things on air that we don't see in parliament if you go to the answer i oppose the minimum tax in parliament on this exercise duty on inputs not just on paid even inputs for things like the agricultural rural agricultural economy talk of animal feeds the vat on them and exercise duty on them i post them and that is the contradiction that you see with john buddy that odm and a committee that is being chaired by an odm chair is midwifing a process that is killing that rural economy the the industries the small paint industries are paint industries that you could do in homa bay that will export paints to burundi to rwanda to the congo but that is what they are killing and that's why you you find john buddy at pains trying to explain what they are what you call you call a colored devolution because talk about infrastructure in the counties and improving roads in the rural areas that's work that's already being done through our county government what we are discussing about and i i i want to beg john buddy to invite him to that very important discussion that when ray lauringa says hustling and wheelbarrows in takataka when johor and i forgive job because he just doesn't have the capacity to understand what the bottom up economic model is when mussoli modavidi speaks the way he spoke trivializing as kwame says trivializing a very important debate about getting to include a majority of kenyans that are excluded from the economic pyramid of this country that is what the bottom up economically let's talk about what that is about exactly who are to discuss that yes and if they were to put aside the insults if we were to deal with real issues uh john budd is asking how do we get to empower those people in the rural community and i'll give you a very good example just allow me to give you one very good question for you as well on the same i will answer the question once you allow me to finish okay briefly one very good example take the the the the daily industry for instance or even pastoralists in northern or uh you know in the in the north rift people who are producing cows that on average when you bring them to the great way about a 110 to 130 kgs and that cow all you need to do is to empower that farmer to have a feedlot that will increase the output out of the same cow to produce about 200 to 250 kgs and that farmer earns an extra 15 to 40 000 shillings that is how you put money back to the people's pockets and the bottom up economy is about getting money back into people's pockets and when you get money back into people's pockets the roads the infrastructure buddy and his party leader talking about you raise money from the same people to government in form of taxes and you're able to do more roads to the rural areas so here's the two do not begin by here's how i'm trying to understand growth here's how i'm trying to understand and you'll see some of the tweets that we'll be reading shortly we'll have them ready so for the border border riders in kikuyo constituency this evening when the bottom up model is fully implemented how will there be more money in their pockets very simple and we have given a very good example specifically the cdf model that gives kiko constituency this year alone 137 million if i was to get a hundred million shillings going to empower that border border rider that mama a very simple model uh that we we had the where's all youth fund and women enterprise fund something that started i think in 2013 with where's the fund that alone you are giving each constituency a mega 18 to 22 million shillings and people are borrowing in groups groups of 10 people and above if you have a model who has that buddha border rider who is riding a motorbike that is either on loan or he is employed by someone else on a motorbike that is leased he will be able to get a hundred thousand shillings be able to purchase his own motorbike on loan on consensual interest rates rather than going to fuliza and yamcha and the [ __ ] they that they're borrowing from today and they will be able to borrow that loan maybe at two or three percent interest they will be able to make money repay their loan when he got tomorrow comes and borrows and has his mama or baba ten thousand shillings i'll tell you from statistics and comment would help us briefly please i need to read the feedback 15 million kenyans are in what uh uh basically in formal businesses out of those 15 million kenyans six million kenyans are in licensed businesses the guys who have their single business permit license another nine million kenyans have uh in unlicensed business resources who say they don't even have the single business permit from uh statistics that people have done economies like kwame here if you are to empower the nine million kenyans who are in the unlicensed businesses those are the guys you are chasing in town calling them hawkers those are people who are demolishing their food kiosks in the streets fair enough if you are to empower them those nine million people who are earning between 200 and 300 shillings yes every day and allow them not to pay the employee and for lisa that they are paying today and be able to get government money that they can use to grow their businesses and and not 300 400 to 600 shillings they will be able to grow this country's gdp by close to 40 percent that means about 4.8 trillion shillings in growth of gdp uh from just nine million kenyans who are in the informal sector unlicensed you clearly have the numbers at your fingertips on to ask you to hold down there because numbers no no you are you i don't dispute that let's look at the feedback this is what kenyans there are so many questions gentlemen and i want to see if we can get through uh some of them kwame i'm coming to you to respond immediately after this we start with twitter um ali salim you say the country is stinking or sinking in loans and heavy taxation economic talk is a fallacy they should tell us how they'll raise the money to pay off our loans okay that's from ali salim let's see what else we have here remember hashtag is newsnite uh omar phillips says unless and until our leaders in government and their allies desist from doing business with the government discussion about the economy remains illogical all right um are concerned about conflict of interest mohamed top economist he said top down bottom up middle out economics all require resources the presidential candidates should not just tell us about the approach they intend to adopt but also how they'll first deal with debt problems they will inherit and create the fiscal space needed to fund their plans okay let's see what else we have dong wai naina says it's a good thing key potential presidential candidates are presenting their what policy platform however there are major crises conflicting the country key being coveted 19 consequences debt almost 80 percent of our gdp limited fiscal space etc question is how to meet what i think we can take one or two more mushai kuniya who's actually the chair of the kenya association of manufacturers you say the rise of the cost of basic commodities because of taxes being added to the finance act post the public participation process is blindsiding businesses causing a spike in the cost of doing business possible to ask your panelists to comment on this and i think kwame win already brought the subject uh with his opening statement while langoa que teni says any presidential candidate talking about economy and development is not being truthful not to the current dead burden and anticipated further borrowing the elephant in the room is corruption who among those masquerading as potential candidates will talk about it and engineer lazaro kanebook you say talk of economic recovery is now a campaign gimmick to almost all presidential contenders question is where were they when the economy was being ruined who prevented them from putting their theories into actions uh one let me read one uh sms remember two to forty two is the sms line sa nixon dugire from kinder rumor says all these models are just buses to get power uh we remember previous models look at what happened can you prove me wrong while lucy commander says the best economic model where we can generate 800 billion by financial year and a promise to create half a million jobs in the formal and informal sector that's what kenyans feel tonight kwame i don't know where you want to begin that is the bottom-up approach okay i think yes um it's it's true that uh any discussions about what new things government will do with public money is uh premature or maybe not so i mean putting the card before the horse i mean the main thing is to ask ourselves how do we get the economy back to balance um which is basically how do we get the budget to be balanced um because partly the debt is a representation of the fact that even before this new entrepreneurs are facilitated we've already spoken for their taxes in the future because the government has decided that we have this deficit that we need to so really any economic plan must actually come with the first so many years of the next administration will be creating balance back in the economy and then obviously giving people an opportunity to expand realistically how long would it take to create that balance well it just depends on what we do between now and then to be honest um money says three years two to three years if we do the right thing which are difficult if we don't do the right things then we might be solving it for 10 years like zimbabwe is right so if we dig in when we can make the difficult decisions and i think the first thing that we need to ask at assessed people is not as other bombardier saying that trilodinger will do say do more of the same things we've been doing build more roads bigger but just do it faster i'll do it in rural areas uh or uh there'll be money to actually redistribute so for instance in in the form of cdf and and and all those i actually think it's a bad idea if you think that bottom-up economics is actually getting government money or rather public money from taxes and distributing it through cdf i'm not too sure that's what you should do because we have banks which are float with cash and part of the reason they're not lending to the border border people and common businesses is that they can make money off sitting off a desk buying commercial paper i mean buying paper of public bonds uh and then uh taking 11 percent of it why should they lend to kwame when they have to chase me and do all those other things they're not doing that so you need to change actually structurally how the government uses public money and government public money i would agree if any of you is saying that bottom up it's a good slogan if any of you is saying that is saying that look one of the things we'll do is we'll do the things that government does well which the jubilee administration to be honest has gone overboard trying to do everything including running a butchery in the name of kmc if you say that we will get government from doing well so that the people who are actually running goods uh butcheries in dagority and supplying two mere nairobians with meat actually get to do that business and then government hands can be released and resources can be released for public sector so a major major major thing more impediments to businesses in nairobi right there's a huge demand for food in in the kenyan cbd a huge demand and somebody estimated to me that 300 000 meals i do not know but they ran a restaurant they told me that 300 000 meals come into nairobi from different traders everywhere all the money the major determinant for developing that business is what the quality of water so it doesn't matter if you give them loans of half a million shillings to set up coolers and everything else but if a kenyan does not trust that this this food has been made with good water then that's it so if bottom up is actually making sure that basic public services the quality of water in nairobi you can drink off a tap and if i would like to see your leader and you going to any tap in the public and drinking that water to give us confidence then that is okay and that's welcome whether it's rural based or whether it's bottoms up bottom up brother that's what i'd like to i'd like to see so these slogans we can assess them but really really giving an opportunity for people to participate so an entrepreneur who cannot bring food into the city or any other product to be honest that's consumed because the quality of water is something that many kenyans are suspicious of obviously is being let down by government okay john buddy is still joining us from homa bay some one of the questions that keeps coming up is before we even talk about which economic model any presidential candidate would adopt should they become president post 2022 the question of debt and of course that covey 19 pandemic assault but maybe let's dwell on debt for a bit what are the odm proposals for that because some say you won't be able to implement whatever you're talking about before the debt question is is looked at and its effect already in terms of the slowdown of some allocation of resources to certain sectors is already visible as we speak yeah first of all i think this is the disadvantage of not being in the studio i think my colleagues always take uh three quarters of the time and leave at uh two uh four-fifths of the time and leave me with a fifth all the time but i'll try to cover as much as i can now let me let me not allow kimani sungla to get away with this and when we passed the minimum tax that was last year 2020 finance bill it was not this year's finance bill and the chair of the finance committee then was not gladys wang i've had him mention that because i'm the chair of odm i'm trying to defend the the chair of the finance committee it was limo then and i want to put it very clear that this year at least the chair of the finance committee as a minority leader i even had to sit hard sitting with the chair of the finance committee before the finance bill was discussed and before we went to the committee of the whole house and so we tried as much as possible there are a few things that probably were not right in the this year's finance bill but i think largely one would agree that this year's finance bill was much more responsive uh to the ordinary monarchy but having said that let me be very clear i've had your question about dealing with the public debt but i want to also um and with all due respect to my friend kwame you know i know he is a very good economist but we need also to understand that creating balance in the economy must only be done by growing the same economy you cannot create a balance in the economy by just saying today we are stopping expenditure we have to to create a balance how do you create it this is not something that is academic it has to be practical and one way of dealing with the debt level because this is something that has been created over the years remember the problem that we are facing today started in 2013 largely when the jubilee ones went into borrowing spree it is not something you are going to do in a year let's not pretend and cheat ourselves the next president of this country is going to spend five years in trying to correct back the economy and bringing it back to line and that you can only do by making sure that money goes to the rural economy because if you grow the 47 county economies of the 47 counties you are going to grow the economy of the nation because the nation is the sum total of the 47 individual counties and that is why i'm saying we cannot run away from the evolution that is the key that is the answer to our problems and we must fix all the problems that affect the devolution and we must take money to the rural economy i have heard kimani manufa asking that infrastructure the counties are already doing are we satisfied with that if you are satisfied with that then i don't think you leave you are not living in this country what we are saying is we need to do more infrastructural developments in the counties we need to help the counties and our rural economy to have market the markets where they can sell their produce and we must create light industries we must improve the economy at the rural areas and that will definitely result into economic growth from that you will generate more revenue but then we have to watch on further borrowing i am not saying we borrow funds excuse me to go and develop our infrastructure that we borrow additional and expensive funds borrowing cannot be wished away we will still borrow but you must realistically borrow money that is cheap number one and there are so much concessional loans that jubilee one was running away from which has actually been adopted by the current jubilee regime i don't know why they didn't do it between 2013 and 2017 2018 when they were borrowing money from commercial commercial loans at eight percent which now is chocking this economy and that was done with kimani right deep inside the jubilee one and the tyranny of numbers and he never questioned anything he's now questioning even when you believe borrowing at zero percent but when did you believe one was borrowing at eight percent he never questioned in my view the only way out of our current predicament is to be realistic in our expenditure make sure that we don't over uh we don't get into so many projects that are not helpful to this economy that we only put resources in those projects that are going to help spa economic growth and that the potential is a rural economy and then let us not borrow expensively and again let us make sure that we avoid and deal with corruption one of the tweets that you read talked about corruption if you look at the first statement that ray laudinga put forward it was number one item was dealing with corruption we are alive to the fact that for this country for the ills of this country to be fixed corruption is top in the agenda and my last comment let us remember that raila odinga has a history in this country anytime he has been in government i hear some people saying he's in government he is not in government today there is no odm member that who sits in the cabinet that is the truth let us not talk about committees in parliament parliament is not running the executive arm of government it is run through cabinet decisions when he was the minister for energy and i mentioned it he is the one who created now what we call rural electrification program yes you you give us a point with the mainly road network that we see in the country today so how are we saying that how that this cannot be done it has not been done over the 60 years whenever we when we had the grand coalition government just general development in this country at that point let me ask we reached even seven percent yes let me ask one one question briefly economic growth so it has happened previously not happened in the recent past yes because because the odm your party is it has representatives in at least 20 counties so to speak any numerous constituencies is there a sign of the success story of the rural economy that your party is pushing and what has stood in the way of that well there are there are counties which are run by odm governors and even jubilee governors which are test case and good examples for example bad counties and i must say my count is one of them and by the way if you are in my shoes the truth is that we do not have the capacity to enforce to the counties what they need to do and i'm not saying that if we get into government it is not something that we are going to deal with there are examples you can give you can go my deputy party leader one of my deputy leaders is the governor for kakamega there are examples in kakamega you can see the kind of health facility that has been put up in kakamega of billions of shillings and it is going to be helpful to the kakamega people very soon the kakamega people will not seek medic medical attention in elderly nairobi and any other place they will go for medical attention seek medical attention in katamega you can see the kind of stadium if you go to kakamego you see roads look the other deputy governor whom i have i have just had kimano jingwa having a very condescending attitude against that is johor finally yes the governor who when corona first came everybody praised joho because the guy had prepared ground and prepared himself to deal with this and that is an odium governor there are also other governors who have also done a fantastic job and hawaii has done relatively well in terms of infrastructural development including trade and industry if you go to kissy underpass there are a lot of times there are a lot of so many markets which have been improved i really wish you were in studio success stories thank you this would have been a lot easier i need to cut you off because of time and kimani i'll also give him a similar opportunity to answer that what have we seen from his side of the political divide that gives kenyans hope that what they practic what they preach is what they'll practice should they get into power in 2022 let's take that break when we come back we're barely scratching the surface with this i don't know what we'll do with the time left sakaija johnson made some interesting comments recently on the bottom up model and he gave some numbers we'll be talking a bit about that and also getting our reaction to what's been said from my panelists and your feedback as well two to forty two csms line hashtag is newsnight we're trying to understand promises of economic models will they work uh will they uh get off the ground with the kind of economic situation we find ourselves in right now as a country we continue to explore that on the other side of this break you're watching news night stay with us we'll be right back you<br><!-- wp:image {"id":1776,"sizeSlug":"large","linkDestination":"none"} -->rn<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img class="wp-image-1776" src="https://en.videoencontexto.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/NEWSNIGHT__ODM_Leader_is_fronting_a_Made_in_Kenya_economic_model_gqaCl7CQ3Sg.jpg" alt="NEWSNIGHT | ODM Leader is fronting a ‘Made in Kenya’ economic model" /></figure>rn<!-- /wp:image -->[/vc_column_text][/vc_column][/vc_row]