Who Are The Incels?

Who Are The Incels?

[Music] hello hello hello it is great to see everyone sort of uh if you list if you’re watching live hello and if you’re listening to the podcast equally hello um i should do a little apologies first we didn’t do a show last week quite abruptly for that’s like technical hitch and because unfortunately i did get covered tiny violin that knocked everything a little bit of course we had a backlog of stuff to deal with but the channel is back doing we’ve got this documentary coming up which i’ll explain uh very shortly and we’ve got some absolutely fantastic interviews coming up with a with a range of truly fascinating individuals about a whole range of topics but i will come on to that shortly now today we’re talking in the aftermath of the horrific events in plymouth britain’s biggest first mass eating indeed in over a decade in which five people were shot dead by jake davidson now obviously the facts of what’s happened will come out in the coming days weeks and months ahead what we do know about the gunman 22 year old jake davidson is that he was immersed in what is often described as in-cell culture online before in the days before he obviously uh was responsible for the massacre which took place he ranted at his 16 year old girl that women are arrogant and entitled beyond belief um on another forum that he was bitter and jealous that women treat men with zero respect or even view them as human beings now before he killed five people including his mother and a three-year-old girl the this showed very striking evidence of an attachment to so-called in-cell culture now some of you may be familiar with what intel culture is others may not be and the whole point of this show is i’m going to be joined by these two fantastic experts who are going to educate me as well as everybody else it’s going to be a very very educational and informative show about a phenomenon which really should have been discussed i suppose on shows like this before a horrific massacre like this took place we’re going to talk about what in cell culture is what’s driving it how dangerous it is and what can be done to confront it so we’ll be talking about that shortly before i bring in my guess again as ever uh the housekeeping just uh if you’re watching this live do click through to the youtube link that helps support the show press like good for the algorithm more people will watch and learn from these brilliant experts who i’m gonna bring in shortly uh but also do subscribe and then you’ll get notifications of the whole range of videos that we’ve got uh coming up and if you want to support us so we can keep doing and expanding with our brilliant team on union wages thanks to you including the documentary we’re currently working on about who owns britain i think it’s going to be a very very very informative documentary about power and wealth in 21st century britain both in urban and rural britain who really owns britain now that is supported by you through patreon.com owenjones84 you can give three quid or whatever you have to support us doing those sorts of documentaries videos which you don’t get generally speaking of course at all that outlets and that’s made possible because of you you can also support the channel by using super chat on youtube you can that way i will put your questions to our fantastic guests and also at the end of the show i will thank everybody we also later i should also say have kayla loch a fantastic climate activist and we’ll be talking about the ipcc report and the existential threat of course facing humanity that the struggle for climate justice and a just transition which younger people and i mean authentically younger people not myself he’s just turned 37 uh who are at the absolute forefront generation zed no pressure who are gonna save the world hopefully now i’m going to bring in our two really really brilliant guests who are extremely lucky to have we’re always extremely lucky of course to have such a fantastic uh range of brilliant experts and these two are very striking examples of that so let’s bring in dr maria norris who is a scholar in terrorism and security and this is confusing uh they’re not related but another norris sean norris who is chief european and social affairs correspondent at byline times but also uh has a book coming out um which is going to be a absolutely fantastic book next year birth violence it will be published by verso who published my own uh book many uh years ago it will be coming out next autumn and i’m sure will be a brilliant compelling read just so you know there’s a slight delay sometimes happens that’s the wonderful world of the internet in which we live uh with sean but don’t worry we will still be able to hear her fantastic expertise on this issue so thank you so much to both of you for joining us thanks for having me um let’s just start with i suppose let’s start with basics let’s start with the fundamentals i think some of the coverage on in the aftermath of this terrible massacre has been i think confused uh some of the descriptions used about in cells by some journalists almost suggest that this is a coherent group of some described description as though it’s an actual organized faction now that isn’t the case uh but i’ll start with you maria what is when we talk about in cells in cell culture what are we talking about so in cells actually is shorthand for involuntary celibates they are a community that started actually was started by a woman a bisexual woman called alana a few years ago and she just wanted to start this online community to talk to people who are having difficulties with relationships but he was very quickly hijacked by very extremely misogynistic men who i think the one way to summarize the in-cell culture the belief that they believe in is that they are entitled to women they are entitled to sex from women and that the fact that they are not getting women’s attentions or sex from women means that they are entitled to commit violence against women a lot of incels believe that rape should be legalized they really organize society in some kind of sexual hierarchy some of them strongly believe for example that sex should be some kind of trade public good that women should provide to men and that their lack their lack of access to women into women’s bodies justifies violence sean i know you’ve spent actually immersed yourself online in some of the so-called in cell some of these groups shouldn’t describe your own thoughts on the intel phenomenon and what you’ve learned yeah absolutely so i spent quite a time researching in cell phones and sort of lurking on the and what i found is just this very very extremist hatred of women you know the language that they use to describe women is really disturbing and very dehumanizing they talk about women as feminists and they used to wear voids for short you know this is a very dehumanizing way about women and women’s bodies the viking ass that the in-cell commune line is had a very obsessed with this idea of the decline which really links to this far-right conspiracy theory called the great replacement and what the decline is is this idea that feminism women’s rights women having access to public space women having the vote women having reproductive rights or sexual choices is causing a sort of degeneracy of western to reverse this is to remove rights and to put in baghdad sphere and to return women to their so-called natural role of being sex objects in reproductive vessels and i think when we look at the incel movement it’s really important that we understand that there is this very real crossover with white supremacy and this kind of far-right fascist ideology around the great replacement and the decline marie do you want to just you know based on what we know about the comments made by the by jake davidson in plymouth what’s your impression about the sorts of comments he’s made and how this links to this board of phenomenon yeah so two things firstly um just building on what shawn just said the insult community is part of a broader part of the internet or the world in general called the manosphere that includes also pickup artists and men’s rights activists and absolutely have a very deep strong overlap with the white supremacist community and it’s something that tends to be overlooked but it’s important to highlight so i wanted to reinforce that when it comes to what happened in plymouth it’s very clear from the videos that we have from the shooter that there was this incredible what’s the best way to use it alignment of his beliefs with the beliefs not just from the in-cell community but with the manosphere in general now the question is when it comes to whether or not this is an act of terror when it comes to the authorities deciding whether or not this is an act of terror is could that be considered an ideology can the in-cell belief be considered an ideology so we can call that as joan smith does she wrote an excellent book called homegrown which is about the relationship between domestic violence and extremism and it’s this belief that extreme misogyny is an ideology and should be considered an extremist ideology alongside far-right extremism and islamic extremism that in fact it is this threat that runs through all kinds of extremism what’s your take i mean charm in terms of what you’ve seen and again we should be clear we don’t know fully we’ve only just heard about this but you know in the aftermath of this horrific incident details are going to be increasingly clear in the coming days but from what you’ve read about this incident what what’s what’s your own take about how it links this broader phenomenon sorry i didn’t catch the end of the question sorry oh sorry yeah so how do you think this relates what happened in plymouth or what you’ve seen about jake davidson how this links to the broader phenomenon so i think one of the really striking aspects of of the way insults communicate and this is kind of linking to what happens in plymouth is there is this process of radicalization going on the way to talk to each other on the forums you really get this sense of men one of them put it as i’ve learned to hate women so much i’ve meet women others talk about learn become sexually attracted to to to girls who are under 16 there’s a whole thread in the inside community about this and you really get this sense of of men being radicalized and being groomed into this ideology and i think when we look at what’s happened in plymouth it’s very early days we don’t know the full details we don’t really know what his engagement with the forums were if there was any engagement at all but in terms of understanding a process of radicalization you know when you look at the incel forums when you look at how they talk to each other it we know what to call it when other groups of people you know i’ve learned to hate women you’re in you’re immersed in these conversations which are teaching you a lesson about women and women’s role in society and i think that’s what’s really concerning and that’s where you can kind of draw these lines between what is said in the forums and the potential violence that comes out of them marie if we talk i mean terrorism this definition of terrorism which you’ve already raised now the police have actually they said this isn’t being treated as terrorism related and this causes this has caused quite a lot of consternation online because a lot of people would argue for example if this was uh you know a a a muslim extreme an islamist extremist then clearly we wouldn’t be debating this this is someone who expresses an ideological uh misogyny uh and that seems to be potentially the driving uh motive behind this horrendous massacre but it’s not treated as terrorism what what what’s your thoughts on that and how the term terrorism is used i mean a lot of people maybe don’t know actually they you know it’s a term which is used casually in the mainstream but they maybe haven’t really unpacked what terrorism is supposed to mean and how it’s applied so what are your thoughts on that well um what terrorism is it’s actually a question without answer i’m um writing a book at the moment almost finished trying to answer that question you know really exploring the idea that terrorism is a question is it something that cannot be easily defined that defines definition the way that i look at it is that terrorism is a social construction so what i mean by that is that if let’s say outside of our window at the moment um a bomb would explode that is an event is a violent event but we wouldn’t call it terrorism it wouldn’t be terrorism unless somebody attached the label of terrorism to that action so what i explore in my work is what is behind the attachment of the label terrorism to specific events so if you look in the united kingdom as a case study and what happened in plymouth as an excellent excellent case study of this the united kingdom has the legal definition of terrorism it’s in the terrorism act 2000 section 1. it is an extremely broad definition the um i think he was the previous independent reviewer of terrorism david anderson himself said on multiple occasions that the terrorism definition was too broad and that in itself was a threat to human rights and it is an extremely broad definition anything and everything can fall under the definition of terrorism but it doesn’t it’s a very it’s used in a very selective way and that selectiveness is what interests me so in the case of the plymouth attack we have um in section one of the terrorism act i can’t remember there’s subsections out on the top of my head but subsection b is that the action has to be um intended to influence the government intimidate the public or intimidate a section of the public subsection c is that that action has to be motivated by some kind of ideology um it could be a political racial religious or ideological motive it’s an act of violence and what i find more interesting is that section 3 of that definition says that if a firearm was involved which in this case it was then there is no need for the requirement of there being some kind of intent behind it an intent to intimidate the public or an intent to influence the government all that is necessary is that the action was motivated by an ideology and in this case it very clearly was motivated by an extreme misogynistic ideology but again it is at the discretion of the um the authorities the law enforcement agencies to make that distinction to make that choice is this violent is this violence is this act of extreme violence an act of terror or is it something else and it’s quite telling just as you said i mean i said the same thing many times that if the shooter in plymouth was brown if he was muslim then we would be having a different conversation because this is a very long-standing pattern in the uk stretching over a decade where crimes violent crimes committed by the far right or far-right extremists or just extremists of other kinds are not considered acts of terror while extremely similar acts are considered acts of terror one key example of this is the murder of lee rigby a few years ago was immediately considered an act of terror the um government made lots of you know declarations about how horrible it was they convened an emergency cobra meeting and announced a new extremism task force a few days after of that mohamed celine was murdered by a far-right extremist also in a very violent manner and there was silence nobody said anything there was no proclamations from the government there was no cobra meeting called there was no task force to investigate far-right extremism and for me the most glaring example is what happened to joe cox that she was murdered by a far-right extremist with very strong white supremacist views and what has happened nothing there has been no effort from the government to actually understand the threat from the far right because it doesn’t consider it to be as much of a threat or a threat at all because everything lies on this definition of what terrorism is and what those in law enforcement agencies and authorities deem to be an act of terror did we know in the last few years they’ve been a series of far-right terror plots in fact it’s been identified as the biggest single increasing potential terror threat we also saw i mean again i mean this underlines your point for example darren osborne who plowed his van um into a group of muslim worshipers he actually came to london with the intention of uh either killing jeremy corbin or the mayor of london siddique khan a pharah extremist who killed one of those people and yet it’s it’s not it in the collective consciousness of this country that doesn’t register i don’t think that darren osborne is a name which almost anyone in this country would be able to recognize but that’s another example of oh and we’ve had for example rosie cooper the labour mp who a far-eye extremist attempted to murder with a machete uh and we’ve had various other terror plots sean i mean in terms of your your own work in terms of this link between in-cell culture and white supremacy and the broader far-right political continuum i’m interested in says what maria just said about terrorism and how terrorism is understood this incel the links between in-cell culture and the far right and how and the violent threat that poses collectively yeah so i think when you look at the in-cell forums you do really see this kind of crossover between um extremely great replacement theory and extreme racism i mean the language that is used about black and global majority people arms it’s very very extreme and very very disturbing the big issues that the kind of community has around women is women who have sexual relationships with black global minority men you know that’s seen as a kind of real attack on their sort of status their male white male supremacist status um and i think there’s been quite a lot of research um particularly sort of since 20 into how extremist misogyny becomes a gateway drug to premises you know there is this real idea that these are men who are very resentful they feel that they’ve been kind of oppressed by society they feel that there’s a war on men and they want to sort of reassert their supremacy they want to you know reassert their patriarchal authority and then that very nicely segues for them into this white white supremacist ideology as well this idea that there are forces that are oppressing them that there’s a so-called white genocide that is being sort of run by global elites and feminism and migration and that is war and i think as soon as you start to allow people to believe that they are superior to one group of people so men who believe they are superior to women women and women it’s very easy to see yourself as superior to another group of people such as white white supremacy over black people and i think again this is why we really need to take these threats seriously and take these spaces seriously because as you say we’ve seen this real growth in far-right terrorism in far-right violence in the particularly in the last five years if men are going on to these forums sort of motivated by misogyny or motivated by attribute of women and that is being radicalized and groomed and allowed to develop into a wider hatred you know this is a real issue and we need to start talking about it as an extremist radicalized group um oh by the way my producer says sean if you want to try wi-fi that i mean we can still mostly hear you by the way but i’ll just leave that with you if it’s possible to use wi-fi there’s a slight it’s slight pause but we are mostly hearing you but i just put that to you but i didn’t i don’t know what conversation you have in my producer but i’ll leave that to you just quickly uh on that maria i mean is this do you think as a phenomenon i mean in america we often hear this expression white lash which is uh i suppose for those who aren’t familiar with whitelash uh is the i suppose a a reactionary backlash amongst white americans against the struggles for justice and equality against systemic racism by black americans and people of color is this in-cell culture equally a backlash against successful struggles by women uh to assert rights uh both legal and and social and is that partly what this is it’s a misogynistic backlash against some of the successes obviously there’s still a very long way to go achieved by feminism and women’s movements and also and this is a slightly odd thing to put to you but i i’m interested in this and if i i interviewed yesterday emilia uh srinivasan who’s written a brilliant book called the right to sex which everyone should read the year the interview will be coming out this week it’s an interaction i’ve had i suppose with so-called in-cell culture um so there is a and this will make people sit up slightly because it’s a slightly bizarre thing to throw in but i’m interested in it as because i was thinking about the last few days there was an alt-right conspiracy theory that was popularized on 4chan that in my first book childhood demonization the working class i wrote about an incident i should be very clear this didn’t happen it wasn’t in the book that i walked in on my girlfriend having sex with a black man and that experience of me being so called cocked uh turned me gay uh and this is i know it’s odd it’s bizarre to say but this is a very this is widely believed in alt-right circles it’s often comes up on my social media feed and they authentically believe this was written about slightly oddly as well in a book called chance the demonization of the working class but i’m just interested in in in that as an example of a phenomenon because that’s a widely believed view am i i get uh you know occasionally threats of violence linked to that conspiracy theory it’s very very bizarre so i’m just firstly interested in this as a backlash against successful claims for justice and equality by women’s movements and so on but i am interested in that as a case study of you know which was popularized and 4chan this online forum yes so the the dedication goes that um for the privileged equality feels like oppression and and that’s that’s what it is um sean said this as well and it’s very true running through all of this the conspiracy theories the manosphere white supremacy is this twin sense of entitlement and victimhood it’s a sense that the world is against them and yet they’re in at the same time they’re entitled to power they’re entitled to money they’re entitled to leadership they entitled to be the powerful ones so it’s those two are very seductive positions to be in and we cannot so i’m trying to express it so we cannot really underestimate the power of the internet of these silly conspiracy theories that sound completely ridiculous once you think of it to attract people to radicalize people so i i did an interview with um a colleague called ashton kingdom she is doing her phd in southampton university and i did an interview with her for my podcast called enemies of the people coming soon but anyway she works on memes and munification and radicalization online and she talks a lot and her work is on a lot of how powerful and seductive memes are silly means of conspiracy theories but memes in general in order to welcome people into these communities and start radicalizing them because means they are harmless they look harmless they’re funny they make you laugh so they break down some barriers and also they give you plausible deniability right it’s just a meme it’s just a joke but they are very powerful and very seductive when it comes to acting as radicalizers online so all of this is linked to the silly conspiracy theories about you and your book and the conspiracy theories about coven in general it’s all linked to this idea that what is it the great replacement theory as well you know that white traditional white male hood manhood is under threat and is under threat from feminists from social justice warriors from woke culture as we’re now called so it it’s so interesting to me how the recurring theme through all of this is entitlement and victimhood i was going to just pose a question to sean but as far as sean frozen i’m just seeing if shark can oh sean is coming in through another well i’ll come on to charlotte shortly maria on i mean in terms of how we challenge this and i know some of the work you do in terms of the government’s so-called counter-terrorism strategy and the government’s own approach to various forms of extremism often uh what i’m sure we can talk about but very counterproductive and often involving stigmatizing large uh communities who already face systemic racism but in terms of what do you think the government’s approach to this particular fight does it even exist is there a government is there an official yeah go for it so no it doesn’t i mean um i have often whenever i talk about this online and i’ve written a few articles about this i have them i’ve had a few government officials write to me and say no you’re wrong we’re doing lots of work on the far right and i’m sure they believe that they are doing lots of work on the far right but where is it why can’t we see it why is it not evidence why don’t we have a public education campaign on the let’s say this early signs of radicalization from the far right why don’t we have documentaries about far-right extremism in britain i mean think about you know decades ago after 9 11 and then after the 7-7 attacks how much information good and bad there was on the media about islamic extremism there were so many documentaries on the topic so many news reports on it and that we have we have nothing we have no speeches i am yet to see a leading government official you know the home secretary or even the prime minister make a speech on far-right extremism and white supremacy and i don’t think we’re gonna see it because come on this is the same government that produced a report saying that there is no institutional racism in the country so how are they going to address white supremacy in the country and far-right extremism in the country if they don’t recognize that institutional racism is a thing john i think we’ve got you back yes so on this on in terms of the government approach a government strategy such as it exists what’s your own thoughts on it well i think in the last 10 years or 11 years austerity we’ve seen a real degradation in the efforts to tackle male violence against women and girls be that you know the kind of extremist misogyny and insults but also in you know domestic abuse and rape conviction rates in sentencing and prosecutions you know by 2016 i think one in six domestic violence refugees had closed down because of austerity cut you know we now have the rate of rate prosecutions within history you know in modern history you know men are growing up and living in a society that is telling them that they can rape women with impunity and the government has not stepped up to deal with this if anything the cuts that they oversaw over the last 11 years has made this worse you know today there’s an article in the observer because the violence swim girl strategy written by the government which you know is comforted with much fanfare isn’t even it’s not even talking about fatal male violence against women so how can the government be tackling these issues when number one they’ve drained the sector of funding number two they’re failing to kind of recognize the fatal male violence against women that is killing you know between two and three women every week you know the the sentencing the prosecutions of rape has just collapsed you know we need to see real concert action that realizes that we live in a kind of epidemic of male violence against women and that we need to have education we need to have justice we need to have a strategy that actually recognizes what causes male violence men and girls and this is where you know in something comes back because whether you’re an incel whether you’re a violent husband whether you’re someone who you know has committed a rape against an acquaintance or a partner you are motivated by the same thing and that is entitlement to women’s bodies and their sexual entitlement to women’s bodies and as soon as we understand these shared commonalities between how male violence works the more we can do to tackle it and i’m just not seeing that from the government so maria given a government strategy simply and for the reasons you’ve just described described there are institutional reasons why that’s just not going to happen in terms of wider social movements in terms of i suppose broader civil society in terms of progressives uh in terms of women’s movements what do you think can actually happen what kind of suggestions do you have in terms of fighting this misogyny and of course we’ve seen an extreme manifestation but there are lots of other manifestations of course of this of this uh misogynistic culture so what what’s your suggestions about what practically can be done i think first of all there needs to be a wide recognition that we do live in a white supremacist misogynistic society that we can praise you know all the progress that we have and we have made a lot of progress all you will we want but we need to be aware that there’s still a really long way to go and i think a lot of this when it comes to civil society and individuals just this idea generally of not getting defensive when you talk about living in a white supremacist society because it doesn’t mean i’m calling you specifically a white supremacist or a racist white supremacy is a system it’s a way of organizing society that privileges the lives and rights of some people primarily those associated with whiteness versus everybody else it’s recognizing that we are embedded in the system and that misogyny is completely linked to to white supremacy that isn’t it cannot be separated from it um so just two examples of this as well the charlottesville attack in during the unite the right unite the right rally um the man who plowed into the the people with the van and killed heather heyer he was chanting while he was doing it he was chanting um white sharia now white sharia now which is a meme that comes from the insult in the manosphere as well you know about women being there for male pleasure just last year actually no 2019. am i still the only one saying last year for 2019 i know i do it as well i think we should just get a year off our ages as well that’s my new campaign anyway i agree um so yeah so in 2019 two teenage neo-nazis were convicted in the uk of them belonging to far-right groups and um and a few other terrorist offenses but what was not reported in the media and it was not really part of the coverage is that they were also campaigning for mass rapes and um and for rape to be legalized and you know launching a campaign of mass rape on women so these are not two distinct phenomena and i think there is a tendency to separate the two but we really need to see how everything in the society is linked and all kind of oppression is linked and the root of everything the root of all of this of misogyny of homophobia of transphobia of racism lies in the structure of our society as a white supremacist society and that’s something that needs to be understood and addressed before anything else can really happen sean what if if we’ve got you we’ll try this i’m optimistic i’m ever the optimist if sean is here what’s your own views about a strategy uh you know in terms of fighting this into not just so-called in cell culture but insult that in cell culture is one manifestation of what we’re talking about what what’s your own suggestions about how we fight this phenomenon so i think the roots had to lie in education right you know there’s been a real concerted effort over the feminist movement in the last sort of 20 years to ensure that we have prop comprehensive sex and relationships education in schools in order to challenge those kind of misogynistic ideas about women and men and i think if we do that that’s a good start but also you need to be challenging the kind of the misogyny that’s in the air we breathe right you know if you are with your friends in a pub and someone makes a sexist joke or a derogatory comment about women you know we need to be chatting that we need to stop normalizing this kind of sexist behavior um and you know obviously there is room for government to be you know we need to be thinking about extremism far-right terrorism and extremist misogyny as the dangers and the violent threats that they are but i think you know there’s a real reason why so much of the far-right is so adamantly against sex and relationships education and it’s because it undermines their entire world view that women are inferior and men are superior and that you know lgbt people don’t have a right to exist all of these there’s huge amounts of campaigning from the far right on this issue and you know we have to think about why that is and therefore really value the importance of education in tackling these misogynistic homophobic transphobic racist ideas and finally to to both of you um and you’ve shared so many absolutely brilliant insights but i supposed to wrap up i mean i should have maybe swapped these questions around because we’re supposed to normally uh end on a kind of what next how do we fight this in a productive way but where do you think this is heading i mean we’ve seen obviously misogynistic terrorist acts in the united states clearly there um i mean since 1980 1.35 million americans have been shot dead so obviously it’s those massacres are easily more easily facilitated by ready access to guns but nonetheless we’ve just seen this horrific massacre here how where do you think this is heading and how much is it as an international as a kind of misogyny international the kind of links online and how they radicalize each other where that will be heading marie what do you think about that well i think the trend is not looking good um the trend when it comes to misogynistic violence violence against women and also violence from far-right supremacists has been going up in the uk in particular there has been a huge significant uptick in violence against women and also violence from the far right since brexit and it has been increasing exponentially ever since and over the years we have seen more and more far-right extremists being caught by police and be prosecuted um successfully which is great but at the same time there is no systemic way of dealing with them there is nothing in this country that is built to deal with that kind of extremism so people who criticize me and what i’m saying will say what about the prevent program well the prevent program was designed very badly in my opinion with lots of problems to deal with the muslim community and then you have the far right being thrown in you know and it’s not designed to deal with that threat and just to say that it’s an awful program that is extremely prejudiced towards the muslim community but what we have when we look at the prevent program for example is the referrals to the prevent program and to the channel which is the uk de-radicalization program from the far right have been going up steadily over the years and now they take they have taken over the referrals from the so-called islamic extremism but we still don’t have any kind of public education or government involvement and what that kind of threat is and we see recently with the what happened to sarah everett and also what happened with her vigil with the way that the police and the government have reacted to women getting together to fight against oppression and also with black lives matter movements getting together to fight against oppression is not to facilitate that is to try and repress that so unfortunately even though you know we’re trying not to end things in negative pessimistic way it’s going to happen more this more violence is going to happen there’s going to be more extremists and hopefully we won’t see another tragedy like we saw today but for those of us who are in the community of researching this and fighting against this what happened in plymouth was the tragedy was shocking but it was not a surprise we could have seen it coming i mean sean lastly what what’s your thoughts about where you think this is where this is heading and how much of a horrifying wake-up call there should be about what comes next so i’m gonna end on a more hopeful note potentially um because i completely agree with maria like this is not heading in a good place and i think you know we are seeing this rise in attacks we’re seeing this rise in normalized misogyny and that is really concerning but i do think i mean most of my research is around abortion and the attack on abortion and i think you know there’s been a wake-up call in the last year or so particularly what’s after what’s happened in poland with the extension of the draconian abortion ban you know what’s happening in hungary with the kind of attacks on the lgbt community which again is very linked to whites and extremists misogyny you know more and more people become western issues you know the united nations is trying to put forward a clause that would um what’s the word kind of solidify reproductive rights as a human right the matic report got passed by the european parliament a couple of montgo which again recognizes reproductive rights sexual rights and women’s you know equality and women have human rights so although things very bad things are very bleak we’ve been sort of resting on our laurels for a long time and i think there’s now kind of an awakening to the fact that we need to fight back we need to fight harder and that you know if we’re going to hold on to our hold on to women’s rights and total extremist misogyny you know we take action now and i think action is starting to happen and that is that i’m glad we did end on a on a rousing and optimistic note but honestly both of you that was absolutely brilliant so compelling so insightful um and we managed to take on the internet problem sean we can still hear you brilliantly so thank you so so much to both of you please by the way everybody do follow them on social media you can follow dr maria norris at maria w norris on twitter and you can follow sean at sean u s h k a uh on twitter and obviously she has this book out they both have this they both do absolutely brilliant and superb work and we’re very lucky to have had them with so many insights about this phenomenon about how dangerous it is about what it represents and what we can do to fight it so thank you both so so much thank you cheers take care cheers shah and i’ll speak to you guys soon um so that was but they were both absolutely brilliant we’re always very lucky to have such an incredible range of guests and our next guest is no exception to that rule this is so so important we’re very honored to have her we were supposed to have her last week but technically but we’ve managed to get it we persevered uh so we’ve got now mikayla loach who is a climate change activist uh with so many cats hello how are you doing hello uh and i should always always plug people’s brilliant stuff so they ike’s po podcast the young podcast i was like reading the they i i’ll let you explain where that is shortly um but basically we’re talking to you again because we have the ipcc report um the intergovernmental panel on climate change uh united nations intergovernmental report about the existential threat of course posed by the climate emergency so we’re going to talk to you about your thoughts just to quickly explain the podcast because i’ve done such a terrible time introducing it no thank you so much for having me and also like that was such an insightful conversation it was lovely to listen to such brilliant people talk about really important things um so the yikes podcast is basically a podcast about all the things in the world that can make us yikes and want to run away from them all these things that can be really overwhelming and scary and make us not want to do anything instead fall into inaction but actually these are the things that we need to lean into and engage with and lean into the yikes and then move into action together and transform that emotion so yeah we talk about everything but especially climate everything everything that we talk about links to climate and climate change because that is inherently linked to every social issue that we face the climate crisis will be the great multiplier it’s not the great equalizer and anyone who cares about the future of humanity or justice in any way needs to be acting on climate and being aware of climate and getting involved so and is really important and as you said this week um the ipcc the intergovernmental panel on climate change released um their most recent report their sixth report and the last report came out in 2018 and it was a big galvanizer for the movement because it made a lot of people realize how like difficult the client crisis is but also how much we can change things if we actually act so this most recent report was obviously really heartbreaking in many ways and you did a whole video on that so i don’t want to go into these things um too too much um but it basically told us that there’s a lot of parts of the climate crisis that we can no longer reverse which is completely heartbreaking i definitely had a big cry i think a lot of people had a big cry that day and but also there are ways which you can flip a lot of the stuff itself in its head so there’s one part where it was saying that every 0.5 degree centigrade of warming increases exponentially these impacts increases like sea level rise exponentially increases like natural disasters exponentially it will cause damage to an exponential degree but also if we kind of turn on its head it means every 0.5 degrees c of warming that we can prevent we can save so many people’s lives we can make so many people’s lives better and that’s what i think we need to focus on when we’re talking about this report is remember that yes things are really bad and yes this has been caused by a fossil fuel industry and by governments not taking action and deliberately delaying things but also we still have an opportunity to prevent a huge amount of suffering a huge amount of destruction and that we all need to take that on board and realize this is a justice issue this is important and that we can do something to change this so look you’ve been at the you know forefront of organizing on this i am interested in you know this is an existential threat self-evidently facing humanity we’re already seeing ever more extreme weather we’re seeing the destabilizing of entire ecosystems and we do have a future of nice cheery way to talk about it of a weekend but ever more extreme weather with catastrophic human consequences on the only planet that we have so but it is often quite difficult isn’t it to mobilize people we actually do see the polling people have you know the urgency has increasingly uh sunk in but i’m i’m interested in what you feel from your own experience the most productive ways of trying to get people organized because my own experience i could be wrong but i think often people find it you know in the abstract they accept it’s an existential threat and it often seems exactly that quite abstract uh often people feel they talk about you know that feel they have more immediate issues uh which which they focus on uh people often find anything to do with science often quite an ex quite a tricky thing to get a proper handle on the sheer amount of information and i wonder as well often the framing of looming catastrophe i don’t know if that’s in itself demobilizing i’m just interested in your general thoughts and all that yeah no definitely i think that obviously people have a lot of stuff to deal with already that’s happening right now and i think that’s why a lot of people find climate really overwhelming because they see it as a future problem it’s something that we can care about a while from now but if we if we look around if we look at the news recently climate catastrophe is happening now it’s an issue that is happening now and it’s impacting so many people now and also wherever you are living it will probably be impacting you today and you won’t even realize it whether it is um through pollution or whether it is the fact that you might live in an area that within the coming years um could end up being flooded or having heat waves and things like that the metro um the uk met office recently gave their first extreme heat weather uh warning because of climate change and because of the impacts of of the warming global temperature and i also think it’s important for us to highlight that if the climate crisis is an essential existential threat to us that is a privilege because for so many people it is really immediate and i have family in jamaica who are much more um kind of uh pro i have much greater proximity to the climate crisis there’s flooding that happens there all the time hurricanes are getting more frequent things like that um are happening today and are happening now and so i think from our perspective and my perspective especially i live in i live in scotland i live in edinburgh i’m in a less climate vulnerable area than other people i realize that it is a privilege in many ways the fact that climate gets to be this existential threat and that i think the best way to mobilize each other is not to focus too much on the science you don’t have to be a science person i think that a lot of the time just talking about climate as a science issue allows these companies that are exploiting and harming to get away with it for so long when in reality the climate crisis is a justice issue it’s one of great injustice that’s happening today but has happened historically um if we look at where the climate crisis impacts the most in the world and also these predictions of where it would impact the most were done by fossil fuel companies by exxon mobil back in the 70s they knew where the climate crisis would hit most where it hit worse who would be most impacted and they allowed it to continue and also continued extracting oil and gas and and profiting from that and if we look at what those areas that are being most impacted those are where the global majority live those are areas that are previously colonized and countries those are areas that are people who are marginalized and who are harmed by um varying systems of oppression even within the uk if we look at who is impact um feeling that that’s the climate crisis most it is those who are most marginalized by society so the climate crisis is a justice issue and i’ve found when talking to people when i frame it like that that it’s a human issue it’s not as much you don’t need to understand emissions and science and co2 and all these different things you all you have to think about is i want to have a livable future and a livable present and i want all of us to be well and healthy i think another way within that is that solutions to the climate crisis have these co-benefits that arise that are really fantastic so i’m a medic as well as all these different apps that i wear and from my medic perspective i can see that the things that also kind of prevent us from making this climate crisis worse also have health benefits that arise from it and the lancet in their climate change and health report reframed the climate crisis from previously they said it was the greatest disaster that could face health in the world and they reframed it as it’s the greatest global health opportunity because of the amount of co-benefits that arise so basically like within that we can see that if we act on the climate crisis through this climate justice lens seeing it as a justice issue we actually can decrease social inequality we can tackle these systems of oppression we can have real system change create an economy that actually works for all of us and benefits all of us rather than just profiting for a few and we can actually make a better world for all of us and that’s a good way i think to get people involved in climate who maybe uh just don’t really get the kind of emissions things think they have more immediate like kind of things happening on well those those um immediate things can also be addressed in a climate friendly way that also means that we create a better world for all of us sorry that’s a bit of a rambling bamboo it wasn’t a tournament no there’s a link to that i mean just a couple more questions but link to that you know i suppose it’s this idea of a just transition isn’t it because i think often those uh particularly those vested interests the fossil fuel industries and so on and their lobbying groups politicians and so on who are very much uh stooges of that particular uh political uh self-interested faction and what they try and do is portray measures to tackle the climate emergency as huge sacrifices that ordinary people will suffer jobs killing measures for example etc etc and i suppose it wasn’t helped in one example of of how that wasn’t just transition was a manual macron in france um introducing a so-called carbon tax which actually did have a regressive impact and i’m interested your thoughts on this of a just transition where it’s not about painful sacrifice but actually improving people’s living standards that there will be high-class public transport so people don’t need to use well internal flights for a start but cars and whether it be uh creating jobs through skilled jobs in renewable industries uh whether it be having greener spaces uh to enjoy with their families so i’m just interested in that idea about you know making the case for a just transition that actually improves people’s living standards yeah absolutely and i think recently there’s been this almost this huge campaign by fossil fuel companies and by the government to make out the um climate organizations or activists are wanting everyone to have all these sacrifices and actually i think so often when we talk about climate it’s not actually about sacrifices a lot of these um solutions actually make a better world for all of us so you talked about address transition and that’s a phrase i think we use a lot of people don’t understand which i think maybe we need to change our messaging um but adjust transition basically is saying that we will transition away from fossil fuels in a way that centers workers rights in a way that centers all of our well-being and that doesn’t have the same impact that we saw when coal mines were closed in the uk for example where that wasn’t a just transition workers weren’t prioritized and instead that was done very very quickly and without um consideration of those rights just foundation sees that we’d invest in renewable energy and renewable infrastructure so that actually when you actually invest in green jobs and renewable infrastructure you can make three jobs three green jobs for every job that’s currently at risk in oil and gas industry so actually there are more jobs that can be created through a green and just economy and there are things like the green new deal which is which is pushing for that and there’s a bill that’s currently being tabled in parliament around that which sees that we can actually make the best world for all of us things like yeah green spaces that improve our how things like affordable um and good public transport but also the amount of jobs that are created from a green um economy are it’s actually so much more and also they’re more stable because the reality is that these fossil fuel companies know that they are going to have to transition away from oil and gas eventually they have to it’s in um international legislation like they have to they’ve agreed to that but they want to delay that as long as possible and the way they do that is they kind of co-opt these workers struggles by pretending that they care for workers when actually they don’t at all if we look at michelle for example they’ve recently announced plans to lay off um 350 workers in the north sea while they also will still say oh you guys can’t have us transition away because workers jobs are what’s important when they they know all these things they know but they what they want to do is make as much profit as possible from oil and gas and a really difficult thing is that the uk government cut the oil and gas industry with huge amounts of subsidies from public money so 3.5 million um 3.5 billion pounds of public money since 2016 so since the paris agreement was signed has gone to north sea oil and gas companies to prop them up and workers aren’t seeing the benefit of those subsidies the people who aren’t seeing the benefit those subsidies the only people who are at the um elites and the people at the top of these fossil fuel companies and i’m a claimant on a court case that is taking the uk government to court around these subsidies and saying that what we should actually be having is a just transition where we actually should be having his investment in a green economy and that this money this public money should be being spent for public good and not to prop up a declining industry and so our case will be going to court later this year and you people can support it at paid to pollute.org uk but it’s really telling within government policy how much they are prioritizing as usual the elite over the the needs of the many and most of us and actually they have the capabilities they have the technology they have everything they could to make a better world for all of us and to invest in a green new deal to invest in a transition that prioritizes workers jobs workers rights and all of our kind of livable future and present but they’re deliberately not doing that and so i think it’s important that all of us um get behind these campaigns and realize that all of this impacts all of us now within our lifetimes all of us will be being impacted by the climate crisis it’s not something we can rely on young people to fix because it’s something that we need to start fixing right now um and also that we do have an opportunity to do that there are there are so many countries around the world that have already started doing that um and we just need to have kind of the strength the courage and the audacity that we can do that and i think that yeah we can so we need to do it and also sorry one more thing because um i need to make sure i remember to say this but um the uk government is set to approve a new oil field called the cambo field um which basically the iea which is i feel like i’m saying so many acronyms but the international energy agency they’re a very conservative agency usually like they’ve been okay with oil and gas for a while and things like that but they released a report that was actually commissioned by the uk government with other governments um and it said that no new oil and gas can be approved if we are to stay within planetary boundaries and climate limits and prevent climate catastrophe um and just after that report came out the government were like you know what we’re gonna do let’s approve a new oil field in the north sea um it’s just quite embarrassing really um but but basically there’s a huge campaign around that um called stock combo that people can get involved with where we’re rallying around to try and save uk should not be licensing or approving any new oil fields especially before they’re hosting the biggest climate conference in the world in glasgow in november um and there’s so much that we can do to campaign around that but also that we’re not just campaigning to stop combo we’re campaigning to create a new future and to create a sustainable future where jobs are actually protected and looked after okay that was brilliant and i have to say in in all no honestly i i really mean this that in in in darker moments when you you feel the world is not necessarily going in the direction an ideal world we would be going in uh certainly taking the scenic route to uh a just world but for me seeing so many younger people who were so passionate not least about climate justice like yourself and i can now because even though i think because of the pandemic we should be able to take two years off our age i’m now 37. i can’t class myself as young but seeing genuinely younger people at the forefront of these movements mobilizing in such great numbers with a contagious optimism and determination uh and courage and it does take a lot of courage and resilience to take on vested interest is very very inspiring indeed and you’re you’re just one example of obviously alpha and a very inspiring example so we’re very proud to have had you to talk about this and people do listen to yikes podcast which i’ve now said uh correctly uh i am such a boomer even though i’m actually technically a millennial i think also just one one thing i wanted to say about inspiring and hoping stuff remember that hope is not a lottery ticket that we said this is from rebecca sumner but hope is not a lottery ticket that we sit on like hoping that we’ll be lucky like no one is coming to save us especially when it comes to climate no one is going to come and save us there are no superheroes in this world like we have to save ourselves we have to save each other and hope is this active stance we have to take so if anyone is worried in any way about the climate crisis like the best way that you can combat that worry and that anxiety is to act and that’s the only way that we’ll actually get a better world so realize that we have that responsibility ourselves and we have to take it i’m sorry to introduce you thank you very much very very very very important and uh a very good note i think to end on and thank you so so much um sorry we as i did mess mikayla around so i’m very glad for finally because of sight technologies but also my terrible disorganization this week thank you so much for joining us and it was a real honor and uh i will speak to you soon thank you soon bye bye bye um they were all brilliant uh so i i learned i mean i’d say selfishly one of the reasons i do this um this show is is to just steal people’s amazing knowledge and insights and learn a huge amount and that’s what we’ve i think all them today from intel culture to the struggle against the climate emergency about obviously the horrors of misogyny in a institutionally misogynistic and racist society and the the the fact is though as as was put so brilliantly by mikayla at the end there are no superheroes uh coming to save us it depends on collective struggle uh and people’s determination resilience and courage uh in in the face of huge adversity um so it was a huge honor to have just such knowledgeable guests to talk about this uh at great length so thank you so much to all of them so before we go i’m off to see my family for a belated birthday lunch but um we do have a lot of absolutely brilliant interviews coming up not least for example with amir srinivasan who wrote who’s written a brilliant book called the right to sex i did actually interview her partly we did talk about the intel phenomenon i was already going to interview her before the terrible massacre took place but we talk about a whole range of issues um from pornography to sex work to sex uh positivity uh to various debates within feminism uh it was so insightful uh and i learned um a huge amount the metoo movement and uh just huge she’s just such a nuanced and thoughtful thinker do you get her book the right to sex but we’ll publish that interview i think tomorrow uh for those who are not listening live that’s uh monday uh so do check that out and we’ve got lots of other interviews coming up with other very brilliant and inspiring people we do have this documentary working on about who owns britain um which i think will be uh again very educational informative again uh i certainly learned a huge amount uh going through uh doing this whole documentary and working with brilliant team you make it possible on patreon.com the reason we’re doing this documentary is people suggested it so as ever what we try and do on patreon is listen to what people ask us to do and then we do them that’s what we’ve done with other documentaries about uh the by-elections uh about um how companies have profited from covered uh we went to a anti-lockdown process because people wanted us to that was certainly an experience but you can check out all of that on the youtube channel but patreon.com ownjones84 you’ve made all of that possible with a brilliant team who are far more capable than myself um just uh finally if you’re watching this live or you’re watching the video please press like encourages the algorithm so people can hear the brilliant expertise and insights of the people we’ve had and press subscribe uh if you’re listening on the podcast uh please do also subscribe and leave a review if you feel um if you feel so inclined and and that is it i’m going to leave you all to it now that’s enough of my own stupid voice um and i will see you live next sunday at 12 o’clock uh but do you check out the channel throughout the week because we all have lots of very very interesting videos and just finally because my producer’s going to kill me thank you to david bowater to juice camp well woody monica reedman for your support throughout they’ve left they’ve a shouty message for me to do that so i have done that so hopefully i won’t get in trouble but lots of love everyone uh have a great day whatever you’re doing and i will see you soon [Music] you
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